[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa IV - Season 5...

[Mladen]

Hello, again. Welcome to the 4th edition of Discussing Sansa thread, dedicated to comparisons between TV and book Sansa. The debate that began after Episode 7 of the 3rd season, continued on the threads for Episode 8 and and 10. Unlike there, here we can devote to entire Sansa`s storyarc from the beginnig to very end, and you can freely discuss about what you percieved as ups and downs of Sansa`s storyarc in the TV show.

Also, since Sansa is the character that completely divides both readership and viewership, I would ask of all of you, to maintain the civilized tone and have the discussion with arguments and not insults.

Any reviews written by members of the forum regarding Sansa are more than welcomed and I would even encourage all of you to write us your opinions on how Sansa`s arc has been handled by producers and writers of the show throughout the past three seasons, with parallels you noticed, possible foreshadowings and hidden meanings of the scenes.

[daoloth]

The problem with the show is that it so drastically changes many female characters for really trivial reasons that it becomes pointless to speculate why something makes sense or not. It is very reminiscent of what was going on with 'Lost' with people trying to make sense of the whole mythology nonsense. The answer was simple - the producers messed up and it doesn't make any sense and you're being had.

In the books Sansa is an annoying character but because she is the only one of Stark children that doesn't grow up as fast as the rest do. In many ways she is the most realistic one - escaping into some sort of fantasy world - rather than becoming assassin-sorceror-adventurer. Although I often cringe reading Sansa's chapters I would have to say I like them most from the point of naturalistic realism. Her growth as a character is believable in speed and scope, taking a few turns for the worse on its way. I can believe Bran's character because his visions and disability are the factors that can have a kid grow up faster. Arya is somewhat forced. Similarly to Jon and Daenerys. Way too cartoonish. Robb on the other hand was fairly believable.

So in that respect I actually quite like Sansa of the show. She is fairly honest, believable and everything that people do not like about her makes her very very human. She tends to be also less distorted in the show. Compare her with the pop-cultural travesties of Shae or Talisa or Margaery.. If there's ever negative contrast compared to Marge, Shae or someone else it is usually because those other female characters are being polished up and glamourized for the sake of i do not know. Appealing to the dumbed down part of modern female audience? The viewers of "gossip girl" and "girls"? I don't know but as much as I found her chapters in the novels irritating (a tip of the hat to GRRM for the skill) she is the least irritating female character on the show. Probably because she is largely what I remember from the books.

A lot of some misunderstanding may come from the fact that while her portrayal is fairly accurate (in spirit) Sophie Turner is much older than the 14-year old (or something like that) Sansa of the novels.

[Mr.Sandman]

The problem is most of Sansa's "character" is her thoughts/feelings etc....

That doesnt translate to T.V, unless we want a Homer Simpson type Zoom in on forehead and have thoughts read to us.

[Gannicus]

At this point I genuinely like the Sansa from the show much more than I like Sansa of mid-ASOS.

Her introverted nature wouldn't have worked for most television viewers.

[zaphodbrx]

Show-Sansa is a stereotypical dumb blonde cliche. The producers are unable to think beyond standard TV tropes. This has happened to all their characters.

[Newstar]

The problem is most of Sansa's "character" is her thoughts/feelings etc....

That doesnt translate to T.V, unless we want a Homer Simpson type Zoom in on forehead and have thoughts read to us.

Ha! There's an amusing image."$20 can buy many peanuts!" "Explain how!"

Show-Sansa is a stereotypical dumb blonde cliche. The producers are unable to think beyond standard TV tropes. This has happened to all their characters.

You know, for all the talk about how dumb TV Sansa supposedly is compared to Book Sansa, she showed herself smarter than Book Sansa at least twice: she wisely refused to tell Shae about Littlefinger proposing the escape plan in 3x02 (unlike Book Sansa blabbing to Dontos), and she lied to Littlefinger about her reasons for wanting to stay in King's Landing in 3x05. Book Sansa blabbed all to Dontos about the Willas marriage plot and then thought to herself that she had told Dontos about the plan, but "he didn't count," so it couldn't have been him. TV Sansa was smart enough to play coy. Littlefinger figured the truth out through other means, but it was because of Loras being a moron, not Sansa.

I'd also add that Book Sansa is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[WhineHaus]

I think a lot of viewers are waiting for a catharsis with Sansa's arc, and they'll get it next season.

As I read the book series, I had a hard time coping with with Sansa's passivity. I just wanted her to flee that viper's nest that is King's Landing! When she finally did, I started liking her character more. She had more of a sense of daring. Also, I always thought it'd be great story telling to have Sansa kill Joffrey, because he tortured her more than anyone. I'm excited to see how they interpret the dynamic of those two during the Purple Wedding episode.

[Ser Luke.]

The problem is most of Sansa's "character" is her thoughts/feelings etc....

That doesnt translate to T.V, unless we want a Homer Simpson type Zoom in on forehead and have thoughts read to us.

Yeah, a lot of Sansa's character involves internal monolouge that is just impossible to portray on the show. I think Turner has done a great job so far.

[Qhorin Fivehands]

I think a lot of viewers are waiting for a catharsis with Sansa's arc, and they'll get it next season.

As I read the book series, I had a hard time coping with with Sansa's passivity. I just wanted her to flee that viper's nest that is King's Landing! When she finally did, I started liking her character more. She had more of a sense of daring. Also, I always thought it'd be great story telling to have Sansa kill Joffrey, because he tortured her more than anyone. I'm excited to see how they interpret the dynamic of those two during the Purple Wedding episode.

Yeah I agree with all this. I can't wait for tv Sansa to leave Kings Landing haha.

[Colonel Green]

Yeah, a lot of Sansa's character involves internal monolouge that is just impossible to portray on the show.

Which they've exacerbated by removing her more active stuff like conspiring with Dontos to escape.

[nirolo]

Which they've exacerbated by removing her more active stuff like conspiring with Dontos to escape.

I don't know. I personally like TV Sansa more than Book Sansa because of the absence of the whole Jonquil/Florian skit.

[WhineHaus]

As a viewer, it'd still be nice to see her a bit more proactive in her planned flight from King's Landing. Right now she's just twiddling her thumbs even though she hates it there.

They could replace the Ser Dontos conversations with Brienne, now that she's in King's Landing before the Purple Wedding. It doesn't have to be a Jonquil/Florian escape thing, though. Brienne (and Jaime?) could just tell Sansa that they'll try spiriting her away. To where and to whom? I'm not sure. But Littlefinger will come in a sideswipe their plans.

I am looking forward to Sansa's upcoming arc. I keep telling my boyfriend that he'll end up liking her --- he thinks she's annoying right now --- but something has to happen to keep her from being anticlimactic.

[BlackStark]

I think a lot of viewers are waiting for a catharsis with Sansa's arc, and they'll get it next season.

As I read the book series, I had a hard time coping with with Sansa's passivity. I just wanted her to flee that viper's nest that is King's Landing! When she finally did, I started liking her character more. She had more of a sense of daring. Also, I always thought it'd be great story telling to have Sansa kill Joffrey, because he tortured her more than anyone. I'm excited to see how they interpret the dynamic of those two during the Purple Wedding episode.

I do not see any reason for hope that there would be an improvement in the way in written the Sansa character is written. It is not like she will have all that much more freedom to portray her thoughts and inner conflict while in the presence of Littlefinger than she did in King's Landing. If they didn't choose to this when she had more characters to verbalize this to in the persons of Sandor and Dontos, how will they show this when all she has is Littlefinger?

[Mladen]

I have found this article about Sansa`s costumes at the TV show, and I would like to hear your opinions about it...

[Theda Baratheon]

I like the idea of heavier clothing in later series almost acting as a shield or armour for Sansa to protect herself with.

[Woman of War]

I have found this article about Sansa`s costumes at the TV show,

Transferred from another thread:

Sansa's marriage dress:

Not only are the heavy velvet and moiré materials, chenille with gobelin patterns, designed by their sheer weight to create a distance between the female person and her environment, as befits a noble lady. They are also a means to alienate the body from the person. These materials do not, like erotic corsage or the equivalent to modern shapewear, serve to enhance the beauty of the young woman in them, they cover and encase, they do nothing to emphazise feminity, basically they are anti-erotic.

And Sophie Turners arms are bare and vulnerable in every sense, a childlike vulnerability of exposure since the dress does nothing to caress the skin, to soften the contrast between clothing as cage and bare skin. There is no organza sleeve, not even a bracelet to connect the body and its wrapping. This dress looks like a very poor advice by a technically perfect yet not really gifted designer - if it were meant to be made for a happy bride. But it isn't. In fact this "poor" choice is a very sophisticated one: a choice of alienation. These fabrics used may be costly but they are no longer fashionable for RL clothing, they are furniture and decoration materials, representative and not meant to create an atmosphere of comfort. Stylish only in an environment of shabby city chic as twisted quotation, deconstructing representation by irony or as vintage fashion. Sansa is basically clad in upholstery sofa decoration or heavy curtains, if in the most elegant manner.

Like they did in our world back in history those heavy costly fabrics signal class differences. Not only are they expensive and this is emphazised by interweaving valuable materials like gold threads. That signal is stronger than the money aspect: gold threads are useless, even counterproductive since the metal in the fabric will not shield a lady from cold. The high noblity can afford useless, even dysfunctional luxury, like golden armour as opposed to solid steel armour. And costumes like that distance the noble body from the dirty poor in a concrete as in a metaphorical sense.

Then why the bare arms, so bluntly presented by the costume designers? The cloak of protection! They knew that the situation where Tyrion has to clad his bride into that cloak will play an important role in the story. And "being clad" cannot be better emphazised than by naked skin before the cloak is wrapped around. Sansa's arms are an invitation to be covered, to be clad. While the cloak Tyrion holds in itself may be beautiful but it does nothing to counter the impression of heavy dullness created by the colour combination. We will see how the Margaery marriage might be presented but in general this cloaking situation has less the character of protection but of putting a heavy weight on the bride in those loveless marriages. Note that there was no cloak when Robb and Talisa married, no weighing down the bride in the only love marriage we have witnessed so far.

And then look at the colours: they are worst for her. This is not golden brilliance, this is greenish olive toned gold with a hint of mustard. The worst for Turner's complexion since in fact she is not a redhead but a true blonde wo is dyed red and therefore should prefer cooler tones. Of course this is deliberate. No costume designer would ever do that as "mistake". Sansa is wrong in that dress in every sense, she is a thing in it, clad into a shell. And we know that the KL hairstyle does nothing for her either, she is a stranger in her own body. Statuesque abstract beauty devoid of erotics.

I could go on for pages and talk about that ridiculous underwear shift, highly impausible for any wedding night, the child's dress for the child in a woman's body, looking like rags on the rather voluptous broad shouldered actress who has the air of a twenty year old, naive and yet more Anita Ekberg potential than Grace Kelly. What a thoughtful choice, finest materials turned into rags by circumstances.

And people talk about the series not being thoughtful with the character Sansa! The nonverbal message sent by the choice of costume could not be more precise, every nuance totally wrong and yet a creative masterpiece.

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

I have found this article about Sansa`s costumes at the TV show, and I would like to hear your opinions about it...

That's a neat analysis, I wonder if there are more about other characters. The costumes in the show are all pretty fantastic. Apparently, they create the costumes, and then age them (which I imagine is pretty standard).

I would say Sansa's transition/character growth is a lot more obvious in the show. In the books, I don't really feel like she grew at all until she left King's Landing. But in the show, she grows a lot in the Blackwater episode (comforting the other highborn ladies after Cersei storms off, standing up to the Hound ie "you won't hurt me") and in Season 3 she doesn't have the naivete that I feel she suffered from in ASOS. I'm anxious to see what they will do with her going forward. Clearly she'll be in the Eyrie at some point in Season 4, because Lysa Arryn has been confirmed to return (apparently she was supposed to be in Season3 , but those scenes got cut)

[Mladen]

That's a neat analysis, I wonder if there are more about other characters. The costumes in the show are all pretty fantastic. Apparently, they create the costumes, and then age them (which I imagine is pretty standard).

There are. I think Margery's costumes has been also analyzed, but you'll need to look for yourself for I have no link...

I would say Sansa's transition/character growth is a lot more obvious in the show. In the books, I don't really feel like she grew at all until she left King's Landing. But in the show, she grows a lot in the Blackwater episode (comforting the other highborn ladies after Cersei storms off, standing up to the Hound ie "you won't hurt me") and in Season 3 she doesn't have the naivete that I feel she suffered from in ASOS. I'm anxious to see what they will do with her going forward. Clearly she'll be in the Eyrie at some point in Season 4, because Lysa Arryn has been confirmed to return (apparently she was supposed to be in Season3 , but those scenes got cut)

The thing with this POV is that people sometimes forget that all we have seen on Blackwater episode, we have read in the books. One can argue that it made stronger impression, but since her storyarc in Season 3 was one giant naivite fest for her, the impact of her scenes in Blackwater episode are now lost. With small amount of time, and proper understanding and dedication, Sansa's storyarc could be done much better. Now we have character whose emotional and other maturity is like ECG, you have ups and downs, and the thing is that in ASOS we had pretty much steady line of her gaining knowledge bit by bit.

[Broken Fox]

I have no problems with TV-Sansa at this point. Well, except for that one line: "Will they let me invite my family?"

I understand she still has some of the naive teenage girl in her, but shit.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I think Sansa has handled herself pretty well. She's in the most difficult position of all Stark kids and she can't trust anyone.