Why Did The Hound Have Soft Spots for The Stark Daughters.

[Net-Viper X]

I alwyas felt like the Hound was the guy that wanted to be a "true" knight. When his brother became a knight and he met the other knights in Kings Landing he began to realise that most of them are actually just corrupt scum and it ruined the idea of being a Knight for Sandor. He likely also had an idea that noble women where all honorable and great people, then he met women like Cersie and his idea of them was poisoned just like his idea about knights.

Then here comes Sansa with the same mindset as Sandor once had, she thinks that knights are honorable and just, and noble ladies are all proper and respectable. She sees that knights are scum and noble ladies are vile and power hungry so the song is ruined for her as well. Basically her and Sandor are in the same boat with having their dreams dashed so they knew what each other was going through even if they didn't realise it at the time.

Sansa however is everything that Sandor alway thought a noble woman was so she lived up to his expectations, and Sandor acts more like a knight that most knights do so he lived up to Sansas expectations. It was Sandor that single handedly saved her from the raping mob while all the knights were cowering inside with Jeoffery. It was Sansa who acted like a proper lady to Sandor when everyone else treated him like a dog. All these things came together to make Sandor and Sansa have this secret attraction to one another because they had both lived the same dream and watched that dream die.

[Grey Words]

I alwyas felt like the Hound was the guy that wanted to be a "true" knight. When his brother became a knight and he met the other knights in Kings Landing he began to realise that most of them are actually just corrupt scum and it ruined the idea of being a Knight for Sandor. He likely also had an idea that noble women where all honorable and great people, then he met women like Cersie and his idea of them was poisoned just like his idea about knights.

Then here comes Sansa with the same mindset as Sandor once had, she thinks that knights are honorable and just, and noble ladies are all proper and respectable. She sees that knights are scum and noble ladies are vile and power hungry so the song is ruined for her as well. Basically her and Sandor are in the same boat with having their dreams dashed so they knew what each other was going through even if they didn't realise it at the time.

Sansa however is everything that Sandor alway thought a noble woman was so she lived up to his expectations, and Sandor acts more like a knight that most knights do so he lived up to Sansas expectations. It was Sandor that single handedly saved her from the raping mob while all the knights were cowering inside with Jeoffery. It was Sansa who acted like a proper lady to Sandor when everyone else treated him like a dog. All these things came together to make Sandor and Sansa have this secret attraction to one another because they had both lived the same dream and watched that dream die.

:agree:

Sansa's values and her treatment of him essentially changed his behavior and turned him away from/woke him up from becoming a complete beast like his knight brother - he wanted to out-knight the knights. His attitude towards Arya became protective and almost familial, though she didn't quite see it that way.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I feel that the constant back and forth and misunderstanding of posts has led to a very confused and befuddled interpretation of my stance.

To clarify. I found offense in this specific post:

The problem for me is the idea that it's normal and acceptable for a young teenager--or indeed any woman-- to be in some kind of relationship with a man who is, even by the standards of his own fictional society, very violent indeed, and who has demonstrated this repeatedly in the book... oh, and to add that his love for her has a "reforming" quality. Many many women have found that error

Not necasarilly in relation to ASOIAF or Sansa& Sandor but in general. The idea that an individual can condemn a womans choice, can say that it is unacceptable for a woman to choose a partner not to their liking. That I found upsetting and called the poster out on it. A very long and confused exchange took place. I realise that the poster and a few others who had chimed in were not able to differentiate between the statements offensive quality and the opinions I hold regarding the book. I realise this is because I discussed both within the same posts and they didn't grasp the two threads of the discussion were in fact separate and continually merged the two.

Reading back through it I also see that there were a lot of assumptions made and that certain posters were interpreting my posts via there own assumptions about why anyone would see a romance where they did not.

I think its best to draw a line under this and perhaps discuss the OP.

I'll be stepping away now as discussing such things with people who are so inflexible is pointless.

[ImpinAintEasy]

the point of flower is not the only time its consider "correct" to marry

I seem to remember a man being married to a babe in swadling clothes and the babe was widowed multiple times (from one of Jaime's POV chapters when he's in the riverlands, at Lancel's holdings?)

[Lady Fevre Dream]

the point of flower is not the only time its consider "correct" to marry

I seem to remember a man being married to a babe in swadling clothes and the babe was widowed multiple times (from one of Jaime's POV chapters when he's in the riverlands, at Lancel's holdings?)

That would be the Lady Ermesade, Ermaseide, something like that, I can't think of the family name. She's the one that the Lannister cousin missing from the KL riots was forced to marry, and if I recall, he was teased incessantly about his breast feeding bride, her being the one breast fed, not him. Jaime did stop there on his way through the Riverlands, and the castellan was complaining to him how the Little Lady bends her knee to the Lannisters in KL, but still his father's men terrorized them and plundered their lands.

I agree that the actual act of bleeding isn't the only time marriage contracts are made, and it's not the the onset of puberty, as someone seemed to suggest up thread. The bleeding comes well after the onset of puberty.

One other thing that I think hasn't been mentioned in relation to Sandor and Sansa, and some of his own possible motivations for controlling himself with her is his station in life. When he meets Sansa, she is the daughter of one of the most powerful lords in the kingdom, betrothed to The Crown Prince. Regardless of the mess that Sansa's betrothal is, Sandor isn't even a landed non-knight, LOL, I think he considers himself, rightly so, too many social stations beneath her, that is the world they live in, these things do matter. He helps her, the abuse she suffers, I'm sure, trigging it in him, and her own nature, but it becomes so much more in his mind, I think. Many things prevent Sandor from acting on his feelings, including decency and restraint, regardless of how crudely he talks.

[Le Cygne]

the point of flower is not the only time its consider "correct" to marry

We were not talking about when it's "correct to marry" but about sexual feelings between a man and a woman, and more specifically, when she's considered a woman in Westeros society. Here's one recent directly sourced interview but he's said the same thing in other recent directly sourced interviews, he's clearly clarifying his views (so don't trot out 15 year old "fan reports" or debate medieval history):

"One of the reasons I wanted to do this with HBO is that I wanted to keep the sex. We had some real problems because Dany is only 13 in the books, and that's based on medieval history. They didn't have this concept of adolescence or the teenage years. You were a child or you were an adult. And the onset of sexual maturity meant you were an adult. So I reflected that in the books.

http://shelf-life.ew...e-with-dragons/

[Le Cygne]

This pretty much says it all:

I think he tried to bring Arya back to her family because he thought it would make sansa happy. A token of his love

I meant to add this, too. We were talking about the sexy double meaning of songs, as well as sexy songs, like the one about stealing a sweet kiss with a blade (slash dagger/trusty GRRM phallic symbol). There's another song to explain Sandor's "soft spot" for Sansa: The Bear and the Maiden Fair is a very sexy song that's associated with them:

The song is a motif that reflects the relationships between several characters, including Sandor Clegane and Sansa Stark, Jorah Mormont and Daenerys Targaryen, and, almost comically, Brienne of Tarth and Jaime Lannister (where Sandor, Jorah, and Brienne symbolize "the Bear" who either literally or figuratively saves the "Maiden Fair").

http://awoiaf.wester...the_Maiden_Fair

This is from a Sansa chapter:

A bear, there was, a bear! All black and brown, and covered with hair!

The bear! Oh come, they said, oh come to the fair! The fair? said he, but I'm a bear! All black and brown, and covered with hair!

And down the road from here to there! From here! To there!

They danced and spun, all the way to the fair! The fair! The fair! Three boys, a goat, and a dancing bear!

Oh sweet, she was, and pure and fair! The maid with honey in her hair! Her hair! Her hair! The maid with honey in her hair!

He smelled the scent on the summer air! The bear! The bear! All black and brown and covered with hair!

He smelled the scent on the summer air! He sniffed and roared and smelled it there! Honey on the summer air!

Oh I'm a maid, and I'm pure and fair! I'll never dance with a hairy bear!

A bear! A bear! I'll never dance with a hairy bear!

The bear, the bear! lifted her high into the air! The bear, the bear!

I called for a knight, but you're a bear! A bear! A bear! All black and brown and covered with hair!

She kicked and wailed, the maid so fair, but he licked the honey from her hair! Her hair! Her hair! He licked the honey from her hair!

Then she sighed and squealed and kicked the air! My bear! she sang. My bear so fair! And off they went, from here to there, the bear, the bear, and the maiden fair.

[Bael's Bastard]

In the case of Sansa he probably had a hard spot, while in the case of Arya it was probably for money.

[Bippy]

All these things came together to make Sandor and Sansa have this secret attraction to one another because they had both lived the same dream and watched that dream die.

I like this assessment. I don't know if I'd consider it the root of a sexual attraction but it would certainly explain an emotional bond.

[Mladen]

Wow, this thread has so many wrong things going on around:

1. GREGOR VS. SANSA. While we all agree that Gregor is the worst influence in Sandor's life and that he has traumatized him for good, we also can't deny Sansa's influence on Sandor. And where is that influence? Well, tell me, what Sandor does after he leaves KL? Go to Harrenhal to find his brother and kill him? No, he was caught. But then he was released. Again, what does he do? Does he go to Harrenhal or start looking for his brother? Nope. What he does is taking Arya to Twins. Why? Well, he hoped Robb could accept him, make him proper lord, and btw, help him kill Gregor. In Sandor's ASOS storyline, we see how things have shifted. How Gregor from priority one, becomes less and less important. You can dismiss it, and say Sansa had nothing to do with that, but the mere fact Sandor felt compelled to look for her, to ask her to take her home, means that in this state where all inhibitions are gone, he actually made some plans regarding Robb and his lordship. Which basically means that Gregor has stopped to be number one priority for quite some time. But that also that Hound stopped being who he is, and that he suddenly forgot Gregor. He didn't, but Gregor was no longer sole purpose of his life.

2. FORCED MARRIAGES. In Westeros, marriages are arranged. We have seen only one FORCED marriage - Tyrion/Sansa. Don't confuse terminology...

3. KNIGHTS. Has anyone noticed how Sandor breaks the bubble of perfect knights both Stark girls have. He does that with Sansa in KL, and with Arya when he talks about "knights not recognizing those beneath them" prior to RW. The deconstruction of perfect knight ideology for both girls is important. For Sansa to see that world is not that simple, and for Arya to learn not to underestimate anyone (which is basically her story)

4. HIS FEELINGS FOR SISTERS. It's so simple and I don't see why you all complicate it. He loves Sansa, but is tragically unaware of magnitude of that love, and is forcefully stipulating it to sexual component (that's why we have that rape talk), and he identifies with Arya, as an outcast, as beta in every possible way...

[bloodofwinterfell]

1. GREGOR VS. SANSA. While we all agree that Gregor is the worst influence in Sandor's life and that he has traumatized him for good, we also can't deny Sansa's influence on Sandor. And where is that influence? Well, tell me, what Sandor does after he leaves KL? Go to Harrenhal to find his brother and kill him? No, he was caught. But then he was released. Again, what does he do? Does he go to Harrenhal or start looking for his brother? Nope. What he does is taking Arya to Twins. Why? Well, he hoped Robb could accept him, make him proper lord, and btw, help him kill Gregor. In Sandor's ASOS storyline, we see how things have shifted. How Gregor from priority one, becomes less and less important. You can dismiss it, and say Sansa had nothing to do with that, but the mere fact Sandor felt compelled to look for her, to ask her to take her home, means that in this state where all inhibitions are gone, he actually made some plans regarding Robb and his lordship. Which basically means that Gregor has stopped to be number one priority for quite some time. But that also that Hound stopped being who he is, and that he suddenly forgot Gregor. He didn't, but Gregor was no longer sole purpose of his life.

:agree: Regardless of how someone feels about Sansan or Sansa herself, I don't know one can deny how much she impacted him. He clearly felt guilty for standing by and letting the other men of the Kingsguard beat her - he mentioned this twice to Arya to goad her to kill him: once after his duel with Beric and, of course, when he was dying of his fever at the end of ASOS. He sees this as one of his sins (that he cries about!). I am 100% sure that Sansa is one of the major reasons - if not the reason - he decided to leave the Lannisters and try to join Robb instead.

[Le Cygne]

In the case of Sansa he probably had a hard spot, while in the case of Arya it was probably for money.

Now this I like. Short and sweet. Says it all, really.

[Bippy]

Now this I like. Short and sweet. Says it all, really.

:agree:

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Yes, indeed you have stated an opinion on this. Quite vociferously. And yet when I ask that you provide textual support for your interpretation, you have precisely one reference: that Ned remembers a sister died under mysterious circumstances.

Yes. And your point?

But you're imposing a paradigm of fraternal sympathy which has limited textual evidence.

As GRRM has said, he's dropped nuggets in the text that the discerning some may pick up on. Perhaps that is not the case here, but his statement surely is enough to say you can't reject a theory just because there's only one nugget. Especially given that as important a minor character as he is, we know almost nothing of his background. Which, to me, suggests that the very few nuggets the author has dropped are intended to have significance.

Instead, I would offer for your examination an alternative that *can* be supported--although whether it's correct is clearly open to debate.

Well, hold on there Tex. I've stated many times throughout this thread that I think the story is open-ended enough that GRRM could write it either way. He doesn't even have to be bound by complete consistency in that regard, either. So when you're trying to prove that your theory is "open to debate", I'm agreeing with you before you even start.

Which version of the possible story people find most plausible may well depend on the individual outlook each of us have on what constitute reasonable human reactions. For my part, I find it more plausible that Sandor would be willing to serve Sansa in a non-sexual, non-romantic (though technically Romantic) manner, than the passionate love others predict.

But again, it ain't my story, is it?