The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Logo Hat
Game of Thrones Logo Hat
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

Who gave Mandon Moore the order to kill Tyrion?


102 replies to this topic

#1 Peter Woolshirt

Peter Woolshirt

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 74 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:27 PM

My theory is that it was Joffrey. GRRM has given us enough clues to figure it out, but he's hidden them very well. He reveals Joffrey's motive in this passage from Tyrion's trial:

Ser Osmund Kettleblack, a vision of chivalry in immaculate scale armor and white wool cloak, swore that King Joffrey had long known that his uncle Tyrion meant to murder him. "It was the day they gave me the white cloak, my lords," he told the judges. "That brave boy said to me 'Good Ser Osmund, guard me well, for my uncle loves me not. He means to be king in my place.' "

That was more than Tyrion could stomach. "Liar!" He took two steps forward before the gold cloaks dragged him back.


But is Ser Osmund lying, or is GRRM misdirecting us here? Tyrion certainly can't know firsthand, as even Joffrey wouldn't be stupid enough to say this in Tyrion's presence. Who else is lying at this trial? Everybody seems to be telling the truth except Taena Merryweather and Shae, and both of them have ulterior motives to lie: Taena wants to ingratiate herself with Cersei, and Shae not only has a deal with Cersei, but also wants to dissociate herself from the traitor Tyrion.

Could Osmund Kettleblack be lying here? Probably not. The witnesses have to swear an oath to speak the truth:

"Lord Hand," [Ser Addam] began, after the High Septon swore him to speak only truth.

and here is what Osmund's brother Osney said about lying to the High Septon in A Feast for Crows:

"I never lied to no High Septon before. I think you go to some hell for that. One o' the bad ones."


Cersei managed to persuade Osney to lie by sleeping with him, but is Osmund's testimony at Tyrion's trial worth that kind of persuasion? He just reports what Joffrey thought, and doesn't really tell us anything about Tyrion's actions.

So Joffrey had the motive (he thought Tyrion was planning to kill him) and he had the means and the opportunity (Mandon Moore would have obeyed him). It's not clear who else Mandon Moore would have obeyed apart from Cersei, and not only is she smart enough to realize that Tyrion is helping defend King's Landing, but she also thought she had Tyrion under control because she had his whore captive.

#2 Lord Elrosir

Lord Elrosir

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 381 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:30 PM

If you want to go by the show, it was revealed that Joffrey did.

#3 Masamune

Masamune

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 508 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:31 PM

If you want to go by the show, it was revealed that Joffrey did.


Joffrey does a lot of things in the show. Even stuff he didn't do in the books.

#4 JMJ

JMJ

    Westerosi ski bum

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 907 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:32 PM

Joffrey does a lot of things in the show. Even stuff he didn't do in the books.


Yeah, like killing Roz... /snark

#5 Winds of Winter blow cold

Winds of Winter blow cold

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,097 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:33 PM

Like the slaughter of Robert's bastards...Cersei in the books, Joffery in the show.

#6 theguyfromtheVale

theguyfromtheVale

    Kill the boy and let the man be born.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,572 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:33 PM

I think it's actually very clear it wasn't Cersei who sent Ser Mandon after Tyrion: she never even thinks about it at all in all her Tyrion-paranoia. As for who is really behind it, several candidates have been proposed. I think it's LF, but Joff is certainly a possibility. Others have proposed Varys, but I don't see his motive; Tyrion is a very valuable tool for him, so why should he throw him away like that?

#7 Ser Areo Mace

Ser Areo Mace

    the shield against winter

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,370 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:38 PM

I've always been a firm believer that Ser Mandon acted on his own. The interaction between Tyrion, Bronn, and Ser Mandon lead me to that conclusion. I think Ser Mandon was possibly friends with Ser Vardis Egen. Or, at least had great respect for the man.

#8 finger

finger

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,129 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:40 PM

If you want to go by the show, it was revealed that Joffrey did.


I haven't seen the show yet. But it doesn't look like Joff's. He'd rather tell Ilyn to behead him.

I thought it was Tywin who was behind.

#9 mrunderhill

mrunderhill

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,619 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:43 PM

I haven't seen the show yet. But it doesn't look like Joff's. He'd rather tell Ilyn to behead him.

I thought it was Tywin who was behind.

No it wasn't Tywin. Tywin does not murder family.
It could have been a number of people, but I expect Joffrey, Cersei and LF are the main suspects. Cersei's POV cannot be trusted. She likes to forget a lot of things and twist them in her memory: treating Sansa well, not murdering her friend, sex with Taena etc. All in all it was probably Cersei, then Littlefinger and Joffrey least likely.

#10 Light a wight tonight

Light a wight tonight

    Chaos, an old knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,482 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:01 PM

I think it's actually very clear it wasn't Cersei who sent Ser Mandon after Tyrion: she never even thinks about it at all in all her Tyrion-paranoia. As for who is really behind it, several candidates have been proposed. I think it's LF, but Joff is certainly a possibility. Others have proposed Varys, but I don't see his motive; Tyrion is a very valuable tool for him, so why should he throw him away like that?

Tyrion has publicly humiliated Joff and LF sees Tyrion as a threat. LF has also manipulated Joff, so a combination of the two is a real possibility.

#11 SerJeremiahLouistark

SerJeremiahLouistark

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 338 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:05 PM

It was Joffrey. The show revealed it. I think although there are variations in the show and the books, it's still the same. Example, GRRM just pretty much told us that Jayne Westerling is not pregnant because Robb's pregnant wife in the show gets butchered along with the unborn.

#12 Ribupr

Ribupr

    Landed Knight

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 419 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:06 PM

I always thought it was Littlefucker

#13 finger

finger

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,129 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:12 PM

No it wasn't Tywin. Tywin does not murder family.
It could have been a number of people, but I expect Joffrey, Cersei and LF are the main suspects. Cersei's POV cannot be trusted. She likes to forget a lot of things and twist them in her memory: treating Sansa well, not murdering her friend, sex with Taena etc. All in all it was probably Cersei, then Littlefinger and Joffrey least likely.


What makes you think that Tywin doesn't murder family? I suspect he does, and I also suspect Tyrion is not his family. I think he had Joff killed.
I'm exploring this story and I'd like to know if you have some evidence.

#14 The Mountain That Posts

The Mountain That Posts

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,146 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:19 PM

It was Littlefinger.

It makes perfect sense. Since Lysa was in LF's employ, it makes sense how the box/message to Cat got to Witnerfell since someone in the king's party left it.

And also, Ser Mandon Moore is originally from the Vale and was recommended by Jon Arryn - as was Littlefinger.

The pieces add up.

#15 mrunderhill

mrunderhill

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,619 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:20 PM

What makes you think that Tywin doesn't murder family? I suspect he does, and I also suspect Tyrion is not his family. I think he had Joff killed.
I'm exploring this story and I'd like to know if you have some evidence.

Everything he says, everything he taught his kids, not killing Tyrion as a baby, Kevan mentioning how important family was to him, going beyond the call of duty to try and find Tyrek, looking after Joy Hill, not allowing Tyrion to go on Gerion's suicide mission, doing everything possible to try and find Gerion, providing Lancel with a Lordship etc. Could go on and on.

#16 daario's man

daario's man

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 632 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:24 PM

I would have thought it was Joffrey, he's the most vindictive. Also Cersei would not have expected Tyrion to do any actual fighting so would not think there would be a chance.

What makes you think that Tywin doesn't murder family? I suspect he does, and I also suspect Tyrion is not his family. I think he had Joff killed.
I'm exploring this story and I'd like to know if you have some evidence.


If Tywin thought for a second that Tyrion not his son, I assume this is a secret Targ theory, then he would have died in infancy. Also he was not in KL to give the order, that he killed Joff is even less likely Tywin would have assumed he could bring him to heel before he did to much more damage.

I've always been a firm believer that Ser Mandon acted on his own. The interaction between Tyrion, Bronn, and Ser Mandon lead me to that conclusion. I think Ser Mandon was possibly friends with Ser Vardis Egen. Or, at least had great respect for the man.


I like this theory, never put those things together before.

#17 Summerqueen

Summerqueen

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 534 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:48 PM

What makes you think that Tywin doesn't murder family? I suspect he does, and I also suspect Tyrion is not his family. I think he had Joff killed.
I'm exploring this story and I'd like to know if you have some evidence.

Tywin says he wants Tyrion to go to the Night's Watch, even though he's accused of killing Tywin's king and grandson. Seems clear to me that death is not on Tywin's mind wrt Tyrion. Plus, Tywin isn't even at KL to secure Moore's cooperation in such a plan, so...

#18 Ser Wun Wun

Ser Wun Wun

    Last o' the Giants

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,129 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:50 PM

It was Littlefinger, by way of Joff. LF orchestrated it in the same way he orchestrated Ned's execution; he planted the idea into Joff's head in both cases.

#19 Winterz

Winterz

    King Bread desires no avatars.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,552 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:53 PM

Well on one of Tyrion's POVs he reflects on it and finds way too stupid to be on his sister's so yeah it was Joffrey. Sending a Kingsguard (in his most notable armor) to murder the acting Hand in middle of a battlefield where thousands of soldiers were watching, yeah not suspicious at all.

Tywin says he wants Tyrion to go to the Night's Watch, even though he's accused of killing Tywin's king and grandson. Seems clear to me that death is not on Tywin's mind wrt Tyrion.


No that's Kevan (totally worshipper of his brother) who says that Tywin would spare Tyrion's life but the latter highly doubts that. It's not Tywin's mmo.

Edited by Winterz, 15 June 2013 - 02:55 PM.


#20 The Weirwoods Eyes

The Weirwoods Eyes

    Must think of something Witty to say here.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,810 posts

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:58 PM

Joff, he knows his grandpa would not jive with offing tyrion, I suspect he even thinks his Mam would not aprove. He wants the Only person who stands up to him.