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Defending Daenerys (aDwD) (Long post)


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#1 Lady Nastja

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:01 PM

The point of this post is to defend the actions of Daenerys in aDwD. Perhaps not the best excuse for a topic, but there have been worse. This is not a post to run around preaching about how perfect Dany is, because she is not. No, this post is to analyse and discuss her actions in aDwD. Any and all opinions are welcomed. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Staying in Meereen:


Daenerys has been judged rather harshly for staying in Meereen, and rather unnecessarily IMO. When she took Meereen, she initially planned to stay there for a short time. She needed to feed "her people" (her Unsullied, sellswords and freedmen) and allow them time to grow stronger. She planned to stay there for a short time, but that time increased for many reasons:

1) She decided that if "her people" stayed in Meereen that bit longer, that they might learn and grow stronger and live a peaceful life for a time before she would take them to Westeros.

2) Similarly, she decided that if her dragons had time to grow bigger and stronger that she might arrive in Westeros on dragon back, with three dragons that she could use as formidable weapons in the war to come.

3) She felt that all she was doing in Slaver's Bay was sacking cities, and leaving nought but death and destruction in her wake. Had she decided to leave for Westeros, she likely would have lost a lot of her sword on the long journey, and the many freedmen who chose to stay would likely have been enslaved again.

4) She saw it as an opportunity to "test her wings", if you will. She thought that if she were to stay in Meereen for a time and rule, she might do a better job as Queen when/if she took Westeros.

Viserion, Rhaegal and Drogon:


Not so long after taking Meereen, Dany began to lose control over her dragons. It was not much a problem, until she was presented with the bones of a child that Drogon had supposedly killed and eaten. That is another issue up for debate, whether or not Drogon really had killed this girl, but let's just go with Dany's assumption that he had.

Now, it is perfectly understandable that Dany would begin to worry that the other two dragons would begin to feast on humans too, and so she had them imprisoned. While this was not the best course of action, and resulted in the dragons becoming rather angry, it was all Dany could really do, although that is open to discussion.

Daario and Hizdahr:


Dany has been heavily criticized for her choice to bed Daario and marry Hizdahr, but should she really be judged for this?

Daario:




Yes, I shall admit, Dany did place far too much trust in him and was far too public with her relationship with him. Many argue that she was foolish to ever bed him in the first place, as he was "beneath her" and did not truly care for her.

Whether or not he cared for her, Daenerys was clearly attracted to him, as he was to her. She was a Queen, perfectly entitled to a consort and though in the Seven Kingdoms such behaviour would have been heavily frowned upon, this is Essos. Yes, their relationship was fuel to the gossips of Meereen but they both found happiness, however brief, in one another so it wasn't really a bad thing (however arrogant, self-centred and generally annoying Daario's character was).

Hizdahr:


To this day I have not encountered even one person who actually liked Hizdahr, if any even do. But this post is not about Hizdahr's character, but to reason with those who would question/dislike his marriage to Dany why it was necessary:

The Sons of the Harpy would murder her Unsullied and freedmen at night, and they only continued to grow bolder and murder greater numbers and more often. They did so, because they viewed Daenerys as a foreigner and resented her ending the slave trade and taking/ruling their city. By marrying Hizdahr, she would provide a peace. The Sons of the Harpy would stop attacking her people, and the shadow war may finally end.

This also later resulted in Yunkai ending their war (though tensions were high and the war resumed soon enough), in a way, with Dany, on the condition that she agrees to sack/take no more cities and free no more slaves.

The Ruling of Meereen:


One of the main things that posters criticize Dany over was her ruling of Meereen. These following points are my effort to defend her actions:

1) Daenerys did not have to stay in Meereen, but she did. One of the reasons that she chose to say, is so that she might rule the city. She wanted to better the lives of all living there, and give them a peaceful reign.

2) She may have made a few mistakes during her reign, but this was really not her own fault. She was under a lot of pressure, and this stress was made even greater when the Song of the Harpy continued to rage their shadow war, cutting down her people bloodily and promising a gruesome fate for any that supported her. She tried to stop them numerous times. Initially, she attempted to sweeten the deal, but eventually had to take hostages.

3) Despite already having been forced/sold into a marriage in her youth, Daenerys married Hizdahr zo Loraq. Did she marry him for his fair appearance or for her love of him? Certainly not, for she could barely stand the man. No, she married him for Meereen. She married him so that the Sons of the Harpy would end their shadow war and that peace might be allowed in Meereen.

Her Possible Ruling of Westeros:


It is popular opinion on the forums that Daenerys would be a terrible Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, because of what happened in Meereen. Now, I am not saying that she will take the Throne, restore peace to Westeros and everyone will live happily ever after, because I do not honestly believe that. She may make it to Westeros, but only be Queen in the South. She may die, she may never make it to Westeros, or she may choose to take more cities in Essos.

These following points are merely the reasons that I disagree with the belief that she would be a terrible Queen of Westeros:

1) When she arrived in Meereen, she was a "savage" of Westeros, a foreigner. The Ghiscari resented her blatant disregard for their "custom" of slaving, and especially resented her rule as she was a stranger to them, whispered to be no more than a "horse lord’s whore."

In Westeros, she is Daenerys of House Targaryen. Targaryen, the House that forged the Seven Kingdoms into one and ruled over Westeros for nearly 300 years. The Targaryens are well known to both babes and old men of the Seven Kingdoms, and as good old Bob took the Throne by Rights of Conquest, they would not fault Dany for retaking her family Throne by Rights of Conquest.

2) As I have already said, Dany was not welcome in Meereen. She was resented, shunned, and the Ghiscari outright challenged her rule.

In Westeros, a Great House (Martell) has already sent their eldest male to wed her and help her retake the Kingdoms. The Martells are not the only ones who would welcome the return of the dragons, I do not doubt. The Targs may have the taint of madness in them, but many still remember the good Targaryens, those who were nothing but good for the Kingdoms. Many and more would still be loyal to the Targs and let’s face it, not many are very pleased with Tommen sitting the Iron Throne, since those who rule in his name changed by the day thanks to Cersei.

3) Daenerys tried her best to be a good Queen in Meereen, but how well can you rule when all but few of your subjects despise you and plot to murder you?

Daenerys possesses many things that a Queen should have; compassion, capability to learn, a resolute personality, she is both bold and strong and she believes in fairness and justice.

As I have already stated, many in Westeros would welcome her. With the right council and Hand, she would be an excellent Queen of Westeros, at least IMO.

Edited by Lyanna Wildheart, 07 July 2013 - 09:41 AM.


#2 Lady Nastja

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 02:28 PM

Post has officially been edited. Sorry for the early blank post, I was typing far too eagerly and hit enter by mistake.

#3 Sajjad

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 03:03 PM

I don't share your opinion the decision to stay in Mereen was idiotic and every decision she made after that was not the best she could have taken .

1) She decided that if "her people" stayed in Meereen that bit longer, that they might learn and grow stronger and live a peaceful life for a time before she would take them to Westeros



reasonable but why Mereen she could have gone to Astaboor where people loved her instead of trying to rule the people she killed their leaders as soon as she conquered their city


2) Similarly, she decided that if her dragons had time to grow bigger and stronger that she might arrive in Westeros on dragonback, with three dragons that she could use as formidable weapons in the war to come.



sounds good but she didn't really try to learn how to control them she just let them roam free then she chained them



3) She felt that all she was doing in Slaver's Bay was sacking cities, and leaving nought but death and destruction in her wake. Had she decided to leave for Westeros, she likely would have lost a lot of her sword on the long journey, and the many freedmen who chose to stay would likely have been enslaved again.

4) She saw it as an opportunity to "test her wings", if you will. She thought that if she were to stay in Meereen for a time and rule, she might do a better job as Queen when/if she took Westeros.


again Astapoor would have been a better choice





Sleeping with Dario is not a big problem for me , what I had problem with was that she trusted him completly, for god's sake the man first act after he met her was betraying and killing his company's other leaders.

and for Hizdar it was a very desperate and weak act but she was in a desperate situation

in conclusion her ruling of mereen was a faliure and really painful to read but I hope she will learn from it and doesn't make this same mistakes in her attempt to conquer Westeros

#4 Tommens Cat

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 03:15 PM

i actually enjoy cersei leadership (and reading about/of) to danys. GODS, she just doesnt get it. Cersei has a bunch of idiots in small council (sure she put them there herself, that is humorous) but dany has SO many good advisors. and SO much more to work with. SO many more opportunities. Dany just sits around thinking "if i look back i am lost"....that is the most ridiculous line in the books IMO. LOOK BACK DANY...and see what you have missed. she is content with letting the world rule her. sure she "ended" slavery in the area. but she plans on actually taking them back to Westeros. OMG, can you imagine the lords and small folk reaction to hundred thousand plus former slaves just dumping their bloddy shit into the Trident and Blackwater and eating whats left of the crops. she is a failure. i didnt believe it untill DWD. but she has past the point of competency, and can only hope to be redeemed by GRRM, which i dont think she will. she may have been a plot devices this whole time.

#5 Bridgeburners

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 03:34 PM

I made a thread some time back saying that I hope Danaerys never goes to Westeros. Some people misconstrued it as anti-Dany, but it was just the opposite. I was mostly anti-Dany for most of the series, but became very pro-Dany at the end of SoS, and throughout DwD. For me, her decision to stay in Mereen is what very much redeemed her.

I never liked that she wanted to go take the Iron Throne in Westeros. It was an idea instilled by Viserys, and based on the stupid archaic notion that rulership should be based on bloodline. Let's not forget that tens of thousands of innocents would have to die in order for her to fulfil that endeavour. I very much like that her mission to end slavery is one born of her own desire, based on the fact that she was (essentially) a slave most of her life. After realizing the horrible state of Astapor after she left, she learned that you can't just abolish slavery and leave a city to its own devices, expecting it to flourish with your decree. You have to babysit it and help enforce a new slave-free infrastructure. And it would probably require your life devotion.

I very much like Danaerys for taking her own cause over the one Viserys instilled. I viewed her desire to stay in Mereen as the most honourable decision she made in the entire series. I hope that eventually she completely abandons the desire to rule in Westeros in favour of helping cities build a slave-free infrastructure. In fact, if she ends up deciding to take the throne, it will completely crap on the character development she has undertaken, and I can see no narrative reason for such a thing.

Edited by Bridgeburners, 22 June 2013 - 03:36 PM.


#6 Pero the first of His name

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 03:53 PM

I do not think she is as bad as some here think but i still would not like her ruling anything.

I do believe she wants to do good (partly to be loved and to gain support for a conquest) but she often does not realise what does she do in the process.
There is a thin line between offering someone freedom but then manipulate their choice by some cheap psychology or lack of their other options, subduing them to your goal.

A very noble act such ending slavery can be just a political campaign. You can easily be seen as a saviour in many eyes while at the same time you just use those people to say ``Look at this horde, i freed them, im good, now i give other slaves in this area a reason to go against their masters and get me more power. It does not matter that i will bring most of them nothing.``

She does deeds which are good by definition and it makes her a decent person. She believes in it. But she never grasps half of the situation.

It is known that she will come to Westeros. This makes all the difference.
For her to make some point in her ideals, desires and actions she must
1. leave some stability in Slaver`s bay (i am not seeing that, all kudos and support if she does tho).
2. conquer westeros without burning a dozen settlements and killing 50000 people, id support her if she approaches that invasion in a manner she did not show so far. swearing fealty to Aegon and going to help at the Wall with Drogon is the best thing she could do, i would respect her then

#7 mindchap

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:01 PM

I personally love Dany's storyline. Her decisions and mistakes make her more human, she's not a comically oversold hero like you have in most stories, and there are a few in these novels too. I would love nothing more than to see the Targaryen line restored as rulers of Westeros, but I could also be happy with her being the lead of a nation of freemen. She has been told all her life that Westeros is rightfully the Targaryen's, but she has discovered, on her own, that the people of Essos need her more than she needs a big Iron Chair, and the day may come when Westeros needs her but for the time being her people, her true people, need her most. And to anyone who hates any of the characters in this story my only question is this: Why keep reading? If you hate Dany, or Stan, or Jon or anybody else then you're all hating the same guy. There is no Dany or Stan, just Martin.

#8 SeanF

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:05 PM

Her problem is that she only has two ways of dealing with opponents:-

1. Cruelty.

2. Appeasement.

That's not an effective combination.

#9 DaarioKnowsBest

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:15 PM

I think she is doing fine as a ruler, there are not many other ASOIAF characters in leadership positions that can claim to be doing much if any better than her at the moment. Doran Martell comes to mind but even Dorne has uprisings going on. the Sealord of Braavos maybe, he seems to be doing well.

#10 C0bR

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:16 PM

I mean, when you use a city and its inhabitants as guinea pigs for an experiment "how to rule", you are a bad human being.

#11 therealbando

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:25 PM

I mean, when you use a city and its inhabitants as guinea pigs for an experiment "how to rule", you are a bad human being.


Yes, but this doesn`t apply to Dany since the reason she remained in Meereen wasn`t to "use the city and its inhabitants as guinea pigs for an experiment"...

#12 C0bR

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:29 PM

Yes, but this doesn`t apply to Dany since the reason she remained in Meereen wasn`t to "use the city and its inhabitants as guinea pigs for an experiment"...

She doesn't leave for Westeros because she admits to herself that she does not know enough about rulling. She wants to "try and learn" in Meereen. I am sure its inhabitants are happy that they can serve her like that...

Edited by C0bR, 22 June 2013 - 04:29 PM.


#13 Mikeygigs

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:29 PM

Her story isn't over yet, but I found it to be, so far, a series of bad decisions stemming mainly from short-sightedness.

Some of the reasons you mentioned like wanting to allow her dragons to grow, and get practical experience are all well and good, but there wasn't much learning going on. There was also no investigation into training methods for her dragons, as she largely ignored them. Also, she didn't take this opportunity to learn about the Great Houses of Westeros, or even anything about the country she's never been to but wants to rule.

Freeing slaves is commendable, but don't do it willy-nilly. You are leaving fairly soon, right? Why bother trying to change a centuries old culture? Go to Westeros, win the throne, and then come back with your fully grown dragons, and do a slave-freeing tour of Essos when you're actually a Queen instead of pretending to be one.

Did she do a bad job in Mereen? I think she did, but then that's not really the issue: SHE put herself in a bad position because of a lack of forward thinking, and that, I think, is a major flaw in her character.

#14 Dany Girl

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:38 PM

I don't think she's a bad character svd also think her time in Meereen was important in order to wake her up a bit to how hard being queen is, let alone taking the kingdom will be.

as for those who think she'll never make it to Westros at all, that's just crazy. Without going to Westros her story line has zero purpose! Nothing she has done impacts Westros at all. Selmy and Tyrion could have joined any of the other "Kings" still in Westros. Essos and the goings on there have no impact on the real story. The fight for the IT and the fight against WW are the story so if she doesn't go to Westros she serves NO purpose.

#15 therealbando

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:39 PM

She doesn't leave for Westeros because she admits to herself that she does not know enough about rulling. She wants to "try and learn" in Meereen. I am sure its inhabitants are happy that they can serve her like that...


I will not let this city go the way of Astapor. I will not let the harpy of Yunkai chain up those I`ve freed all over again.


Quite the monster isn`t she?

#16 Strongest Of All Belwas

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:43 PM

One thing people seem to forget is that Daenerys is about 16 years old or so. She's still a kid, basically. Sure, her life experiences are far beyond those of a real, modern day 16 year old, but let's not forget that she's still a hormonal, confused teenager. Her questionable decision making is in part due to that. Her relations, reactions, and such are all tied connected to that. I'm not saying that it's all because she's a kid, but it DOES play a part.

#17 C0bR

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:45 PM

Quite the monster isn`t she?

She says that after admiting that she knows batsh*t about rulling and that she needs to learn.

#18 therealbando

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:51 PM

She says that after admiting that she knows batsh*t about rulling and that she needs to learn.


True, but since when is admitting that you don`t know something considered a bad thing? My point is that she didn`t stay in Meereen only to use those people for her experiments like you said. She admits that she has no experience in ruling and she remains in Meereen to bring back the peace, and it will also provide her with experience.

#19 Julian Lannister

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 05:14 PM

....LOOK BACK DANY...and see what you have missed.....


HAHAHA best thing I read all day. She's a little girl by our standards but she is Khaleesi and Mother and w/e else titles she have taken on and should need to learn from her mistakes/not repeat them. I don't have the time to type up a proper argument for each of Lyanna Wildheart's points (although some I do agree with) but her biggest mistakes to me were her treatment of the dragons and the chaos she allowed the Sons of Harpy to sow. Should've just wrecked their shit by killing a kid or two or *god forbid* catching one of them in the act??? How does a whole army of unsullied not catch a single one of those mofos for over half a year. Then again, I'm a fan of more Machiavellian characters and perhaps that doesn't fit her very well.

#20 DaveRoid

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 05:31 PM

....LOOK BACK DANY...and see what you have missed.....


End of ADWD arc of her character:

Dragons plant no tree's.

To go forward I must go back.

Mereen will always be the harpy's city and she could not be a harpy.

You are the blood of the dragon, you can make a hat.

She is good to go.