Defending Daenerys (aDwD) (Long post)

[Dany Girl]

Also, if you think that I believe that Dany is perfect, then you are very mistaken.

no one thinks she's perfect, she's very flawed, we just see that she's trying to do the right thing. Stannermen are usually the ones blind to their favorites flaws :)

[danm_999]

I'm still waiting for a response to my question about hypocrisy, if people have a problem with hypocrites then why read any of it?

Because finding examples of hypocrisy from Daenerys and other characters doesn't preclude enjoying the series.

[Dany Girl]

Because finding examples of hypocrisy from Daenerys and other characters doesn't preclude enjoying the series.

there is not a single character that does not show some hypocrisy at some point, so why is Dany worse? Robb, Stannus, Renley, the Lannisters, the Tyrrells, and ALL the rest have had instances of hypocrisy, so I don't get the Dany hate above the rest.

[danm_999]

there is not a single character that does not show some hypocrisy at some point, so why is Dany worse?

First of all, I don't think you've shown your work here to conclude that every single one of the characters in the series is at some point hypocritical.

Secondly, I don't understand why, in a topic discussing Daenerys' good and bad qualities, inevitably when a bad quality is brought up, people have to bring up other characters having bad qualities too. The reason we're discussing Daenerys and not other characters is because this is a bloody 'discuss Daenerys' topic.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

people compare Dany to other characters because its the logical thing to do, there has to be a compass somewhere and it makes most sense to compare her with other characters who exist in yhe same fictional universe. otherwise its stupid to compare her to George Bush or Obama or whoever you get your idea of who is a good leader from.

[Dany Girl]

First of all, I don't think you've shown your work here to conclude that every single one of the characters in the series is at some point hypocritical.

Secondly, I don't understand why, in a topic discussing Daenerys' good and bad qualities, inevitably when a bad quality is brought up, people have to bring up other characters having bad qualities too. The reason we're discussing Daenerys and not other characters is because this is a bloody 'discuss Daenerys' topic.

The original argument was that Dany is a hypocrite so that poster didn't like her, my argument is everyone is a hypocrite so why is that an argument against her. As to everyone else I can name incidences showing hypocrisy if you need me to but I think it's not necessary. Hypocrisy is a normal human state. We are always think we are right above all others and that our mistakes should be overlooked but won't always overlook flaws in others. To completely disregard one character for hypocrisy but not the others makes no sense.

[danm_999]

people compare Dany to other characters because its the logical thing to do,

Why is that logical? To clarify the issue I'm having here, someone calls Daenerys a hypocrite (and I don't necessarily agree with the specific accusation here, I don't think she's hypocritical for having the Unsullied follow her) and is told they should stop reading the series if they find that hypocritical, because other characters are also hypocritical.

But it doesn't follow that;

1. An act of acts of hypocrisy should preclude someone reading and enjoying the series; or
   
2. That an examination of Daenerys as a character in itself must be argued with a comparison to other characters.
   

there has to be a compass somewhere and it makes most sense to compare her with other characters who exist in yhe same fictional universe. otherwise its stupid to compare her to George Bush or Obama or whoever you get your idea of who is a good leader from.

I'm not suggesting we compare her to anyone. This topic is clearly intended to examine the character's flaws and merits, but certain posters get very prickly about the former, and start trying to make sweeping, unsubtantiated statements like every single character in the series is a hypocrite to defend their favourite character.

[Nictarion]

Yeah, sure, they are utterly normal. Maybe they would be good neighbours. On the left side would live the carpenter and that one on right side would be the Unsullied with an inn and his name would be Boris. They are entirely capable of those things...

Oh wait, they aren't.

Seriously, you guys are just wicked, going to such a lenghts just to make her look like a perfect human being.

I am done here.

I honestly don't know how your still arguing the unsullied have no emotions or feelings, were the quotes from the text not enough proof for you?

[TheMysteriousOne]

Everyone is a hypocrite at some point in their lives.

ETA: I'm not saying this to make Dany seem better than anyone, or anything like that, after all I'm just trying to defend her.

[Nictarion]

i dont think she is perfect, but I think she is the best ruler of all the living Kings and Queens in the books

:agree:

[mindchap]

I am done here.

Thank you

[DaarioKnowsBest]

when people start throwing out claims that Dany singlehandedly made a mess of Slavers Bay because she is a faulty leader, i think its more than fair to point out the other leaders in the books who have their own huge messes they made due to their own bad decisions

[Nictarion]

Everyone is a hypocrite at some point in their lives.

ETA: I'm not saying this to make Dany seem better than anyone, or anything like that, after all I'm just trying to defend her.

Absolutely

[danm_999]

The original argument was that Dany is a hypocrite so that poster didn't like her, my argument is everyone is a hypocrite so why is that an argument against her.

Because we're in a topic discussing and examining Daenerys. Dismissing flaws (and merits) this way is toxic to the conversation. It'd be like me saying Daenerys' charisma and ability to make friends is irrelevant because other characters like Renly and Robert are charismatic too. It's just not pertinent, and super lazy.

As to everyone else I can name incidences showing hypocrisy if you need me to but I think it's not necessary. Hypocrisy is a normal human state. We are always think we are right above all others and that our mistakes should be overlooked but won't always overlook flaws in others. To completely disregard one character for hypocrisy but not the others makes no sense.

You don't think proving the fundamental underpinning of your argument that every single character is a hypocrite is necessary?

I could, extremely easily point out how characters like say, Maester Luwin, Tommen or Gilly aren't hypocrites.

[LordStoneheart]

I could, extremely easily point out how characters like say, Maester Luwin, Tommen or Gilly aren't hypocrites.

We'll see about that when beets are never outlawed.

[Dany Girl]

Because we're in a topic discussing and examining Daenerys. Dismissing flaws (and merits) this way is toxic to the conversation. It'd be like me saying Daenerys' charisma and ability to make friends is irrelevant because other characters like Renly and Robert are charismatic too. It's just not pertinent, and super lazy.

You don't think proving the fundamental underpinning of your argument that every single character is a hypocrite is necessary?

I could, extremely easily point out how characters like say, Maester Luwin, Tommen or Gilly aren't hypocrites.

the ones I originally listed are, as well as most others.

Robb-oath breaker

Stannis- went against his king, says he doesn't want crown but fights a war for it. Allows a zealot of a religion he barely if at all control way too much, including burning people as offerings to her gods

Lannisters-do I really need to make a list

as for Luwin, Gilly or Tommen, one is a child, the others are not contenders for the crown, therefore don't matter in a discussion about Danys validity as a leader.

Not to mention people's main argument for Dany as a hypocrite is that she doesn't have s problem with slaves until she gets to Slavers Bay which is untrue. She was trying to make changes when she was with Drogo but had to tred carefully ior die. Once Drogo died she didn't force anyone to stay with her, they were free to leave. The unsullied are freetio leave. The rest of the freed people are free to leave. As soon as she could make a difference, she did. She's young and naive so didn't expect the resistance to change she has received. That's not all her fault. Her whole life people have kissed her and her brother's asses telling them it's their duty to lead.

[danm_999]

We'll see about that when beets are never outlawed.

It shall be the greatest test of Tommen's moral fibre!

[Ser Edmure Tully]

I think its pretty admirable you're standing up for your favourite character OP, and a defence thread isn't a massive issue for me, E-Ro did Stannis defence all the time (even once trying to portray him as a feminist) and everyone loved him for it so that isn't an issue.

Gods know I'll defend the Starks and Jon Snow against all attackers so I understand where you are coming from. However, I dont agree with you.

I see Dany, in many cases, as ignoring justice in favour of vengeance, often in ways that aren't even justified by their results. To use an example (and I know Dany Stans are tired of it, but as a Stark Stan, I'm sick of people saying Ned and Robb were incompetent morons, just as Stannis Stans are sick of people calling him a heartless murdering power hungry monster, sooo deal with it, we all have to) take the crucifixion of 163 Masters in Meereen.

This acheived nothing. She didnt know whether or not they were the people responsible for crucifying 163 children. She crucified them anyway and only served to turn the rest of the nobles against her. If she was killing them because of the children, she either missed her intended targets or killed people who were innocent of the crime, and if she was killing them due to her moral objection due to them being slavers, then she should have killed the lot of them. Instead, she tries a halfway option, that helps no-one.

She isnt honourable, and relatively just and consistent, like Ned, and likewise she isnt brutal and pragmatic like Tywin. This is my problem with her, because she doesnt know what it is she wants to be, and she is using an entire city as an experiment to try and figure it out. Because of these two competing theories of rule within her, it leads to compassionate acts like the side she shows with Missandei, her remorse over Hazzea and the attempted freeing of slaves juxtaposed to the violence of massacaring the entire free Astaporian population over 12 and the torture of a wineseller's daughters in front of him.

She needs to figure out what kind of ruler she wants to be quickly, because although her intentions are ultimately noble, thousands of people are dying because of them, and her lack of ability to implement her vision, if, indeed, she has one.

Also, to those saying people who dont like hypocrisy shouldnt read ASOIAF, back off. Just because someone thinks Dany is a hypocrite doesnt make the entire series worthless, you can still enjoy reading about her story while thinking she's a giant hypocrite, its not like the two are mutually exclusive.

[Nictarion]

She needs to figure out what kind of ruler she wants to be quickly, because although her intentions are ultimately noble, thousands of people are dying because of them, and her lack of ability to implement her vision, if, indeed, she has one.

I think that's exactly what happened at the end of ADWD, the dragons plant no trees line. IMO, she has often been to merciful, which has held her back.

[danm_999]

the ones I originally listed are, as well as most others.

You said there wasn't a single character who hadn't shown hypocrisy at some point.

as for Luwin, Gilly or Tommen, one is a child, the others are not contenders for the crown, therefore don't matter in a discussion about Danys validity as a leader.

Woah woah woah woah. We're doing some major goalpost shifting here, aren't we?

No kids, only leaders huh? What about, say Jon Arryn? What about Baelor Breakspear?

Not to mention people's main argument for Dany as a hypocrite is that she doesn't have s problem with slaves until she gets to Slavers Bay which is untrue. She was trying to make changes when she was with Drogo but had to tred carefully ior die.

Actually, no. She felt bad about Drogo enslaving people to pay for her invasion of Westeros, but let's examine what she actually thought about it;

Slaves, Dany thought. Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver’s Bay. She wanted to cry, but she told herself that she must be strong. This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne.

She then claims some of the women as her slaves (which is admirable in the sense that she protects them from rape), but that's still slavery.

Then, when she housed with Xaro Xoan Daxos in Qarth, and

An entire wing was given over to her. She would have her own gardens, a marble bathing pool, a scrying tower and warlock’s maze. Slaves would tend her every need. In her private chambers, the floors were green marble, the walls draped with colorful silk hangings that shimmered with every breath of air. “You are too generous,” she told Xaro Xhoan Daxos.

“For the Mother of Dragons, no gift is too great.”

So yeah, she didn't give those slaves she was gifted their freedom.

It's worth noting that Daenerys didn't truly decide to become abolitionist until she arrived in Astapor. She was fifteen. It's also worth noting she commands the Unsullied to slay no child under twelve. I guess the 13, 14 and 15 year olds that hadn't figured out slavery was wrong yet are SOL.