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Aegon and Blackfyre


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#1 midnight ghost

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:21 PM

I reread the the tales of Dunk and Egg recently and was wondering what do you think the implication to Westeros would be if Aegon, got hold of the sword Blackfyre, from the Golden Company. Would this be enough to legitimize him? Do you even think it is a possibility?

Or do you think it would be a greater symbol for him to be able to rally a great number of troops. Blackfyre and Targ supporters?


Sorry for the edit first time, poster. That was the question i was trying to go for.

Edited by midnight ghost, 26 June 2013 - 04:01 PM.


#2 King of Winters

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:27 PM

I think of he the Golden Company do have Blackfyre then they'd keep it safe and secret as people might get suspicious of him as the last known wielder of the sword was a Blackfyre, and might think he's not a Targ, but a Blackfyre. So if Varys and Illyrio want people to believe he's a Targ then they wouldn't want him wielding it.
And I don't think he needs it to legitimise himself. People will believe he's Rhaegar's and Elia's son without it.

#3 Mladen

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:27 PM

After Blackfyre rebellions, all of them were exiled, male line is destroyed and they were disinherited. So, I dont see how the sword would help Aegon's claim when he proclaims to be Targaryen...

#4 Knight Of Winter

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:36 PM

Even if Aegon is a Blackfyre (which I don't believe he is), Varys and Illyrio earnestly worked to convince everyone he actually is a Targaryen. His whole claim to Iron Throne is based to his (fake or not) Targaryen-ness, not his Blackfyre-ness. In that aspect, I don't see how would wielding Blackfyre's sword help him in his ambitions.

#5 A Man Has Said

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:44 PM

After Blackfyre rebellions, all of them were exiled, male line is destroyed and they were disinherited. So, I dont see how the sword would help Aegon's claim when he proclaims to be Targaryen...

I think he could still make it work for him as long as he loudly and consistently proclaims to have 'reclaimed' the sword, and is the first TRUE Targaryen to hold it since Aegon the Unworthy foolishly gave it to his bastard instead of to his true son Daeron as he should have.

The mere fact that an object has been in the wrong hands, even for generations, doesn't mean that it becomes a symbol of the latter holder (unless you let it - it is all a matter of PR or propaganda after all.) For instance, if Aegon or Dany were to lay claim to or assume the Iron Throne, I don't think that anyone would think that they were therefore a Baratheon or a Lannister. The only difference is that the sword is actually called Blackfyre, so the PR job of overcoming that would be slightly tougher.

#6 midnight ghost

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:46 PM

I was thinking along the lines that having the ancestral sword of house Targaryen as well as the sword that bittersteel took back from bloodraven at the redgrass field would allow him to rally not only Targaryen supporters, but the Blackfyre supports to his cause as well.
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#7 mrunderhill

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:47 PM

I think he could still make it work for him as long as he loudly and consistently proclaims to have 'reclaimed' the sword, and is the first TRUE Targaryen to hold it since Aegon the Unworthy foolishly gave it to his bastard instead of to his true son Daeron as he should have.

The mere fact that an object has been in the wrong hands, even for generations, doesn't mean that it becomes a symbol of the latter holder (unless you let it - it is all a matter of PR or propaganda after all.) For instance, if Aegon or Dany were to lay claim to or assume the Iron Throne, I don't think that anyone would think that they were therefore a Baratheon or a Lannister. The only difference is that the sword is actually called Blackfyre, so the PR job of overcoming that would be slightly tougher.

I agree with this. It would be require a lot of PR, but it can be done. Especially if he draws parallels to himself and Aegon the Conqueror. It's risky though and he is fighting with Bittersteel's golden company, who have their founders head with them. I am not sure it is worth the risk. A 100 years of Targaryen propaganda has blackened the name of the Black Dragons.

#8 WatcherOnTheWall

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:48 PM

After Blackfyre rebellions, all of them were exiled, male line is destroyed and they were disinherited. So, I dont see how the sword would help Aegon's claim when he proclaims to be Targaryen...


Correct me if I am wrong but I think you are misunderstanding, the sword Blackfyre is the Targaryen sword, its where the Blackfyre's got their name, it is not the sword of the Blackfyres although they were the last to posses it.

#9 Squarely Rooted

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:49 PM

I guess the question for me is - as long as the sword was Valyrian steel, who could prove it was or wasn't Blackfyre?

#10 Mladen

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:52 PM

I think he could still make it work for him as long as he loudly and consistently proclaims to have 'reclaimed' the sword, and is the first TRUE Targaryen to hold it since Aegon the Unworthy foolishly gave it to his bastard instead of to his true son Daeron as he should have.

The mere fact that an object has been in the wrong hands, even for generations, doesn't mean that it becomes a symbol of the latter holder (unless you let it - it is all a matter of PR or propaganda after all.) For instance, if Aegon or Dany were to lay claim to or assume the Iron Throne, I don't think that anyone would think that they were therefore a Baratheon or a Lannister. The only difference is that the sword is actually called Blackfyre, so the PR job of overcoming that would be slightly tougher.


The question OP asked was if the sword alone is enough to legitimize him. And it's not. I think that when Dany would come proclaiming he is false dragon, holding Blackfyre sword would actually be a bad PR. Especially in scenario OP thinks would happen

#11 A Man Has Said

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:54 PM

Correct me if I am wrong but I think you are misunderstanding, the sword Blackfyre is the Targaryen sword, its where the Blackfyre's got their name, it is not the sword of the Blackfyres although they were the last to posses it.

That's my point, and the point that (F?)Aegon would have to sell. As long as he vehemently doesn't accept the premise that the sword is anything other than the great Targaryen sword of old, that's what it will be, and he will be reclaiming it in the name of his great ancestors.

ETA:

The question OP asked was if the sword alone is enough to legitimize him. And it's not. I think that when Dany would come proclaiming he is false dragon, holding Blackfyre sword would actually be a bad PR. Especially in scenario OP thinks would happen

Oh. I guess I was responding to the later comments, not the OP.
No, I don't think having the sword alone would legitimize him. Handled correctly, it could help. Handled poorly it could actually hurt his cause.

Edited by A Man Has Said, 26 June 2013 - 03:57 PM.


#12 Mladen

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:56 PM

Correct me if I am wrong but I think you are misunderstanding, the sword Blackfyre is the Targaryen sword, its where the Blackfyre's got their name, it is not the sword of the Blackfyres although they were the last to posses it.


No, I understood very well. The last owner of the sword is Maelys Blackfyre and it became symbol of their House. From Daemon to Bittersteel and Maelys, its the symbol of Blackfyre rebellion, so I don`t see how Targaryen heir, of dubious legitimacy could get advantage by wielding Blackfyre sword. It would only deepen the doubts once Dany comes and proclaim him an impostor.

Edited by Mladen, 26 June 2013 - 03:56 PM.


#13 Aurane Velaryon

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:58 PM

Blackfyre is a double edged sword. Aegon could easily use the sword as a symbol of the rebirth/renewal of House Targaryen, he can even call himself Aegon the Conqueror reborn, that would have a pretty huge impact. The Targaryen loyalists would flock to him like flies on a corpse, especially if he starts winning battles and manages to take Storm's End. The sword was originally associated with the Targaryens, since Aegon doesn't have dragons to help him, he'll need anything associated with the old Targaryen aristocracy to boost his image.

the sword has been tainted by House Blackfyre and most people would see that as evidence of him being an impostor or a Blackfyre but does that really matter? the Lannisters have already branded him an imposer but will that stop the Targaryen loyalists from joining him? no. will that stop the Lannister enemies or people who think they have a better shot at power by helping Aegon? probably not. the rumors of him being an impostor will become less and less relevant as his army grows larger, eventually people will forget it or ignore it just like the rumors of Cersei's kids being bastards born of incest. The benefits of having the sword easily outweigh the risks.

#14 mrunderhill

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:00 PM

I guess the question for me is - as long as the sword was Valyrian steel, who could prove it was or wasn't Blackfyre?

I am sure there are descriptions and Blackfyre was very distinctive. I think it was very dark even for a Valryian blade.

#15 Lost Melnibonean

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:01 PM

I suspect the sword is hidden away in a certain manse in Pentos...

#16 Super Hans

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:03 PM

I guess the question for me is - as long as the sword was Valyrian steel, who could prove it was or wasn't Blackfyre?


That's a good question. As far as we know, nobody alive has seen the blade and we've never gotten a description of it.

#17 King of Winters

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:04 PM

the sword has been tainted by House Blackfyre and most people would see that as evidence of him being an impostor or a Blackfyre but does that really matter? the Lannisters have already branded him an imposer but will that stop the Targaryen loyalists from joining him? no. will that stop the Lannister enemies or people who think they have a better shot at power by helping Aegon? probably not. the rumors of him being an impostor will become less and less relevant as his army grows larger, eventually people will forget it or ignore it just like the rumors of Cersei's kids being bastards born of incest. The benefits of having the sword easily outweigh the risks.

Yes it would matter. The Blackfyres are seen by Targ loyalists as rebels and traitors. If they saw (F)Aegon with Blackfyre then they'd get suspicious and think why does he have the sword the Blackfyres had and how did he get it?
And it will definitely matter when Dany arrives in Westeros and starts a second Dance of Dragons because of it.

#18 Mladen

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:05 PM

That's a good question. As far as we know, nobody alive has seen the blade and we've never gotten a description of it.


Barristan fought in the War of Ninepenny Kings where he slained last Blackfyre pretender, and sword was there...

#19 Jory Cassel

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:07 PM

Blackfyre is a double edged sword. Aegon could easily use the sword as a symbol of the rebirth/renewal of House Targaryen, he can even call himself Aegon the Conqueror reborn, that would have a pretty huge impact. The Targaryen loyalists would flock to him like flies on a corpse, especially if he starts winning battles and manages to take Storm's End. The sword was originally associated with the Targaryens, since Aegon doesn't have dragons to help him, he'll need anything associated with the old Targaryen aristocracy to boost his image.

the sword has been tainted by House Blackfyre and most people would see that as evidence of him being an impostor or a Blackfyre but does that really matter? the Lannisters have already branded him an imposer but will that stop the Targaryen loyalists from joining him? no. will that stop the Lannister enemies or people who think they have a better shot at power by helping Aegon? probably not. the rumors of him being an impostor will become less and less relevant as his army grows larger, eventually people will forget it or ignore it just like the rumors of Cersei's kids being bastards born of incest. The benefits of having the sword easily outweigh the risks.


And who would those be, beside Dorne? The Tyrells already have put a queen on the IT, I highly doubt that they would rally to Aegon.

#20 King of Winters

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:11 PM

And who would those be, beside Dorne? The Tyrells already have put a queen on the IT, I highly doubt that they would rally to Aegon.

After (F)Aegon saves Oldtown from Euron's attack, the Redwynes and Hightowers will flock to him and some other Reach Lords as well, and because (F)Aegon has
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