[BOOK SPOILERS] Theory: Ramsay hunts a Stark in Season 4?

[Filleted Man]

How about Euron captures Asha while sailing back towards the Iron Islands, turning her against him?

[protar]

Most of what you propose seems the most likely route Wert although it does worry me about S5. It looks like it may be running into much the same issue that AFFC had, which is to say a massive bloat of new characters. Both the Dornish and the Ironborn seem too crucial to cut entirely which means unless they're introducing Dorne this season there'll be a massive load of new characters in S5. It is kind of frustrating that seemingly the entire Ice and Fire fandom thought it a good idea to put the Kingsmoot in S4 and yet D+D are the only ones who disagree :P

I do disagree however that Yara rescuing Theon will actually play out that long in terms of a subplot. Early into the season I'm certain the Asha will be captured by Stannis.

[Colonel Green]

Early into the season I'm certain the Asha will be captured by Stannis.

What purpose would that serve that early in the story?

[protar]

What purpose would that serve that early in the story?

Well it would remove the need to have the Battle at Deepwood Motte which would be expensive, and it would allow Asha to take the role of Mance's spearwives instead of introducing brand new characters. It would also give Asha something to do if they don't want to do the KM this season.

[YouSnowNothing]

Also, speeding up Yara (and my extension Stannis, as he won't have to go to Deepwood Motte) to get to the North more quickly allows them to easily get to the Battle of Winterfell in S5. That is what I'm certain they will do, and that's why I'm also sure that there will be no diversions or added subplots with Rickon or Ramsay or Yara taking the place of Jeyne or anything. S4 will end with Yara at the Wall and Theon in Winterfell, I'd put money on it.

[go joff go]

Also, speeding up Yara (and my extension Stannis, as he won't have to go to Deepwood Motte) to get to the North more quickly allows them to easily get to the Battle of Winterfell in S5. That is what I'm certain they will do, and that's why I'm also sure that there will be no diversions or added subplots with Rickon or Ramsay or Yara taking the place of Jeyne or anything. S4 will end with Yara at the Wall and Theon in Winterfell, I'd put money on it.

I could see that. Plus I don't think the kingsmoot is necessarily cut but rather could be changed. GRRM seemed to suggest that there was some sort of loophole Yara/Asha was going to use to get a recount on the kingsmoot. I think they might just skip that and make the 2nd book kingsmoot (if it happens) the first kingsmoot in the show, since otherwise it would be repetitive.

[King Tommen]

Also, speeding up Yara (and my extension Stannis, as he won't have to go to Deepwood Motte) to get to the North more quickly allows them to easily get to the Battle of Winterfell in S5. That is what I'm certain they will do, and that's why I'm also sure that there will be no diversions or added subplots with Rickon or Ramsay or Yara taking the place of Jeyne or anything. S4 will end with Yara at the Wall and Theon in Winterfell, I'd put money on it.

In the scenario where Yara is taken by Ramsay when she tries to save Theon, there would be no Deepwood Motte either.

I'm not entirely sure why Stannis would be capturing Yara on the way to the Wall (although I guess you could come up with some kind of reason). The two characters have no connection and no beef with each other at this time and are on separate missions. I also have a hard time envisioning Yara hanging out at the Wall against her will for a long period of time as she is clearly determined to rescue Theon, not be involved in whatever BS Stannis is up to.

If you want everyone to eventually get to WInterfell in short order, I would think that getting Yara and Theon together with Ramsay is the best way to do it. Linking Yara up with Stannis doesn't seem like a great idea especially considering how occupied with other characters Stannis will be once he gets to the Wall. Is she just going to hang around in the background of every scene until they finally get to Winterfell so she can link up with Theon, which appears to be the major destination of both characters?

Here's the issue I see: The show has emphasized Yara and Theon's relationship much more than the books had at this point. In the books, Asha is much more concerned with first becoming the new leader of the Ironborn and then holding the Ironborn conquests in the North. She doesn't seem to really give a shit about Theon's fate outside of a rudimentary check of Winterfell after it's been burnt down. When they finally do get reunited, she feels more pity for him than genuine affection. On the show, they've made it clear that these two do have a strong sibling bond even though they've been apart for so long. They included a scene in S2 where Yara talked ruefully about trying to keep him safe when he was a baby and then you've got her steadfastly vowing to save him from Ramsay when she finds out he's at the Dreadfort. As well with Theon, they've had scenes in S3 where Ramsay is fooling Theon into thinking that Yara is looking for him and that he's bringing Theon to her.

How is this not all leading to Theon needing to save Yara from Ramsay to fulfill his redemption arc?

Not to mention that there has been absolutely no work done to establish the possibility of Jeyne Poole being whipped up to present to Ramsay. I really doubt they're going to even attempt to introduce a storyline whereby Ramsay needs to be legitimized with a Stark. Going by the conversation between Roose and Walder Frey in the S3 finale, it sounds like Roose has simply just been awarded Winterfell by the Lannisters as the new Warden of the North (Walder asks him if he's going to move into Winterfell now and Roose responds that he will eventually but there's that whole issue of having it burnt to the ground that he'll have to address first). As a sidenote, in the same conversation, Walder mentions that he's been awarded Riverrun too so it looks like they're just going to shortcut a lot of those potential roadblocks in the future.

My best guess is that Ramsay takes Yara in as his new plaything which horrifies Theon. Ramsay gets called to Winterfell by Roose as their new home and they invite the other Northern Lords there where Ramsay could possibly just say he's going to marry Yara (in order to either solidify the hold over the Iron Islanders occupying the North or just for Ramsay's amusement who knows?).

Then Theon would finally be able to free Yara and we have them getting out of Winterfell and finally running into Stannis which resets us back to where we are at the end of ADwD in that story.

[Bastien]

I'm on the Yara bring captured by Stannis boat. Mainly it gives Stannis something to do in the early season because I'm betting he won't arrive at the Wall until episode 9 and the two characters have to end up in this configuration eventually anyway. They're going to be in the same vicinity, on boats headed in more or less the same direction... I could see this being a likely complication in both their plans. I like protar's suggestion as well that she ends up on the rescue mission with Mance, as that puts her back on her intended goal and saves characters.

[King Tommen]

I'm more inclined to believe that the spearwives lift right out of the story completely. No need to introduce or replace them.

I can also think of better things to occupy Stannis in the first part of S4 than have him encounter Yara for no good reason and capture her for even less good reason. And I know that the show often ignores the geography, but how would Yara and Stannis run into each other? She's coming from the West and making her way to the Dreadfort. Stannis is sailing from Dragonstone to Eastwatch by the Sea. Outside of the fact that they are both technically in the North, it's nowhere near each other.

[Ser Luke.]

It's possible, but I was thinking Theon's Season 4 arc will consist of him taking Moat Cailin and meeting Jeyne before the wedding. Added stuff is unnecessary.

[Bastien]

And I know that the show often ignores the geography, but how would Yara and Stannis run into each other? She's coming from the West and making her way to the Dreadfort. Stannis is sailing from Dragonstone to Eastwatch by the Sea. Outside of the fact that they are both technically in the North, it's nowhere near each other.

In episode 10 Asha explicitly says she's sailing up the Narrow Sea to the Weeping Water so yes they will be in the same vicinity.

[King Tommen]

In episode 10 Asha explicitly says she's sailing up the Narrow Sea to the Weeping Water so yes they will be in the same vicinity.

So she did. That's a weird route but I guess if you want to arrive by boat, that's about the only way to get to the Dreadfort. I still don't see how Stannis would care about what she's doing and how they would "capture" someone on a boat. Is it going to be like Pirates of the Caribbean?

I just don't see the connection and why those characters would link up and why Stannis would drag her all the way to the Wall for no good reason. People are honestly missing the connection here. It isn't about getting Stannis and Yara together, that pairing is completely inconsequential. It's about getting Yara and Theon together, that's the pairing that matters and will drive the drama of Theon's story for the remainder of his arc.

[YouSnowNothing]

The trouble is, having Yara around Theon from early S4 onwards doesn't gel with Theon's loss-of-identity arc. He's never going to forget his true name and become Reek if his sister is right there all the time to remind him. He needs to be isolated and friendless a while longer to get him at his lowest, before he starts to remember himself. Then he will be ready to meet Yara again, once he's remembered his name.

[King Tommen]

The trouble is, having Yara around Theon from early S4 onwards doesn't gel with Theon's loss-of-identity arc. He's never going to forget his true name and become Reek if his sister is right there all the time to remind him. He needs to be isolated and friendless a while longer to get him at his lowest, before he starts to remember himself. Then he will be ready to meet Yara again, once he's remembered his name.

I think the whole idea at the end of S3 was that he was on his way to becoming Reek. By the time Yara gets there partway through the season, the transformation will be complete. Remember that the whole torturing progression throughout the length of S3 was to break him down. He's been flayed and castrated and psychologically battered. You'll have a little jump in time between seasons and/or the first time we see Theon again which I'm sure will highlight that he's been completely broken. I think that will be sufficient in detailing this transformation.

Do we really want another full season of Theon being broken down even more? I think the process has been demonstrated thoroughly enough.

[YouSnowNothing]

Sorry, I didn't explain myself well. Having Yara around would undoubtedly help Theon get better very quickly. He'd forget his "Reek" name quickly with his sister reminding him that he's Theon, whereas he really needs to be at his lowest for a lot longer. He can't reach the "remembering his name" part of his arc until mid-late S5, or it won't have half the same impact. Yara can't be hanging around Theon from early S4 onwards.

[King Tommen]

Sorry, I didn't explain myself well. Having Yara around would undoubtedly help Theon get better very quickly. He'd forget his "Reek" name quickly with his sister reminding him that he's Theon, whereas he really needs to be at his lowest for a lot longer. He can't reach the "remembering his name" part of his arc until mid-late S5, or it won't have half the same impact. Yara can't be hanging around Theon from early S4 onwards.

If you want to follow exact book timelines, sure. I think there's more you can do with Theon than have him wallow around with no identity for so long. Maybe having Yara captured is part of Theon's torture and it provides leverage to Ramsay for Theon to be brought in further under his spell. There's a lot of things they could do there that would be interesting. More interesting than Ramsay dragging Theon on an unsuccessful hunt for Rickon anyways.

[go joff go]

I'm more inclined to believe that the spearwives lift right out of the story completely. No need to introduce or replace them.

I can also think of better things to occupy Stannis in the first part of S4 than have him encounter Yara for no good reason and capture her for even less good reason. And I know that the show often ignores the geography, but how would Yara and Stannis run into each other? She's coming from the West and making her way to the Dreadfort. Stannis is sailing from Dragonstone to Eastwatch by the Sea. Outside of the fact that they are both technically in the North, it's nowhere near each other.

Better things for Stannis to do like what?

[Weeping Sore]

I'm on the Yara bring captured by Stannis boat. Mainly it gives Stannis something to do in the early season because I'm betting he won't arrive at the Wall until episode 9 and the two characters have to end up in this configuration eventually anyway. They're going to be in the same vicinity, on boats headed in more or less the same direction... I could see this being a likely complication in both their plans. I like protar's suggestion as well that she ends up on the rescue mission with Mance, as that puts her back on her intended goal and saves characters.

This makes some sense. I had initially thought Yara actually takes the Dreadfort while Ramsay & Reek are hunting Rickon. Then Stannis later takes the Dreadfort instead of Deepwood Motte. But the specificity with which they're detailing Yara's route at the same time they're talking up Davos's getting the fleet back together- I can see it. Yara wouldn't hole up in the Dreadfort because that would be repeating Theon's S2 decision to try to hold Winterfell, so keeping her "on ice" at the wall could work until her return to Winterfell in S5. Ok.

I think we see zero Greyjoy uncles in S4, and one (Euron) in S5. We probably get Balon's death by FM onscreen, then Varys informing the Small Council that Euron has seized the Seastone Chair shortly after. Then no Kingsmoot in S4 or S5, just maybe 3 S5 Euron scenes before he reaches Meereen. If there's a Kingsmoot 2.0 in the books, it's just Yara helping Theon try to reclaim his rightful throne. Kingsmoot concept won't exist on the show. In short, they're gutting the Ironborn. I will miss Victarion, but he might have been hard to pull off without his hilarious inner monologues anyway.

[King Tommen]

Better things for Stannis to do like what?

I'm not a writer but I would think you'd want to structure the season in that you start with Stannis at Dragonstone and give him something to do there. As Davos mentioned in the S3 finale, possibly having Davos campaigning men like Saan to follow him, maybe a conflict with Selyse and/or Shireen on them coming along on the trip. Reacting with Davos and Melisandre to the news that Balon and Joffrey are dead, thus fulfilling the leeches prophecy. There could be increased conflict between Melisandre and Davos about what her powers are and what she sees in the flames. There could be further debate about whether they should go to the Wall or not. Stuff like that... not a ton of material but just enough to remind the audience of what they're up to.

And then I'd expect there to be a bit of a gap in episodes where we don't visit the storyline at all until (in E9 presumably) we finally see them arrive in force in the nick of time to take out the Wildlings (like it is in the books). Have the audience kind of forget about them for a bit and then bam! he's there to save the day. I see no reason to show any of the travels on the boat or an indication that they're arriving imminently at the Wall.

[Khal-a-bunga]

I'm not a writer but I would think you'd want to structure the season in that you start with Stannis at Dragonstone and give him something to do there. As Davos mentioned in the S3 finale, possibly having Davos campaigning men like Saan to follow him, maybe a conflict with Selyse and/or Shireen on them coming along on the trip. Reacting with Davos and Melisandre to the news that Balon and Joffrey are dead, thus fulfilling the leeches prophecy. There could be increased conflict between Melisandre and Davos about what her powers are and what she sees in the flames. There could be further debate about whether they should go to the Wall or not. Stuff like that... not a ton of material but just enough to remind the audience of what they're up to.

And then I'd expect there to be a bit of a gap in episodes where we don't visit the storyline at all until (in E9 presumably) we finally see them arrive in force in the nick of time to take out the Wildlings (like it is in the books). Have the audience kind of forget about them for a bit and then bam! he's there to save the day. I see no reason to show any of the travels on the boat or an indication that they're arriving imminently at the Wall.

I think episode nine is a bit late for Stannis to arrive at the Wall. Granted, I'm making an assumption here, but it seems likely that Jon's story will end with him being elected as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. That being the case, I think we need to see the machinations behind that coming to fruition in at least two, maybe three episodes. That would put Stannis' arrival at the Wall in episode six or seven.

Going by how the seasons have been structure thus far, my guess is that the episodes of next season will end (roughly) like this...

Episode 1: Introduction to Coldhands.

Episode 2: Death of Balon Greyjoy.

Episode 3: Barristan fights the champion of Mereen. Purple Wedding.

Episode 4: Siege of the Wall begins

Episode 5: N/A (perhaps something with Dany, or maybe even something with the Theon story line)

Episode 6: Ygritte dies.

Episode 7: Event with Arya & The Hound at the Inn. Stannis arrives at the Wall.

Episode 8: Duel between the Red Viper & The Mountain. Tyrion sentenced to death. Arya leaves The Hound to die.

Episode 9: Tywin and Shae murdered by Tyrion.

Episode 10: Jon elected Lord Commander. Arya takes a ship to Braavos. Tyrion boards a ship to Essos. Dany banishes Jorah and chooses to rule in Mereen. Littlefinger and "Only Cat." followed directly by Lady Stoneheart.

ASoS is largely as well-regarded as it is because of how insane the last third of the book is. Though they've gone with a climax in episode nine, and a denouement in episode ten for the first three seasons, I think we'll see that formula broken up with season four. Partly because the endings for the majority of the characters act so well as both a season ending moment, and as a culmination to their entire stories up to that point. They know that they've got a tough job when it comes to adapting the fifth season and beyond, so they'll want to capitalize on how great these endings are, and end the fourth season with an (arguably) even more crazy finale than the penultimate episode. The non-readers won't be expecting it, which will make it all the more effective.

I think part of the reason the first season was such a success with non-readers, was that each episode ended on such a great moment (except, arguably [i guess], episodes three and eight). Bran getting pushed out the window; Lady being killed and Bran waking up; Tyrion taken prisoner by Catelyn; Ned & Jaime duel; Viserys killed; Ned betrayed; Ned killed; birth of the dragons. That's great stuff, and I think season four has the ability to easily top that material. That's a function of the next season largely acting as the end to the first act of the narrative, as a whole. Some characters will be harder to deal with than others, but that's unavoidable (especially with Bran, who I definitely think will be used in a capacity that allows him to shed some light on the important elements of the past that inform the current narrative).