Melisandre sees Bloodraven in the flames? other way about?

[Irelands Gemstone]

Melisandre while looking in the flames views a wooden face, pale surrounded by a thousand red eyes (obviously Bloodraven) with a boy, with a wolfs head howling beside him (obviously Bran) this is basically taken at face value.

Im more curious as to when she says that they are the great others champion, and it got me thinking, Is Bloodraven sending this vision to Melisandre, or is he allowing her (magic? visiony things) to penetrate a cave where no other magic could (the one him and Bran reside in) or is he even aware that she is scrying him (Bloodraven has near omnipotence, surely he knows.

Does he care that she is scrying him? Is he sending her the vision, is she stronger than Bloodraven in terms of breaching the wards he has placed about the cave they are in to keep the others out.

Just a thought for discussion.

[Frozentree]

The wards do not protect against magic, only against certain creatures entering. I think that whole "champion of The Great Other" is Melisandre's fantasy, she seems to be wrong pretty often and makes too much assumptions.

[Beorn Snow]

I don´t think bloodraven is omnipotent. But yeah, Mel is usually wrong. Maybe you could say she is wrong for the right reasons if you really believe in the power of R´hllor.

[mindchap]

Bloodraven is more focused on a threat that is far North of the Wall, after reading the Mel chapters I have a lot more doubt about her powers, specifically, the fact that she doubts herself. She's depicted throughout the books as being so confident, then we see into her mind and realize it's all just a front, she really doesn't know what she sees, Bloodraven however seems to have a much greater focus on what really is threatening the realm, he may not be omnipotent, but he is definitely the most powerful character we have encountered so far.

That being said as to your original question, no I don't think BR is showing her the visions she has but I think his magic is a part of the magic that protects the Wall, so maybe there are some magical "wires" getting crossed but that's verging into "completely theoretical with no proof of my own" territory. Sorry to be so confusing.

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

after reading the Mel chapters I have a lot more doubt about her powers, specifically, the fact that she doubts herself. She's depicted throughout the books as being so confident, then we see into her mind and realize it's all just a front, she really doesn't know what she sees,

The first time I read that chapter it annoyed me (I'm sure I thought "good lord ANOTHER POV!!!"), but the second and third read through it was one of my favourite chapters in ADWD. In particular the focus on "the trappings of power", which is a phrase that runs through my head with many of the other characters too, with all their pomp and pageantry.

I think it's interesting that her chapter is simply called "Melisandre" as opposed to a name like "The Red Priestess" or something, like so many of the other minor and secondary POV characters have.

[Tini]

I think The Great Other are people (or peoples) who refuse to follow R'hllor. The White Walkers, the Children of the Forest, the dead things in the Water at Hardhome - all of them are "other", parts of the Great Other. So are people like Bran and Bloodraven who live and work with them. In that sense, Bran and Bloodraven are champions of the Great Other. Champions of diversity.

I agree that the boy with a wolf's head in Melisandre's vision is most likely Bran. Still, I wonder about Robb who had Grey Wind's head sown onto his shoulders after he died. People keep coming back from the dead, and Bloodraven warned Bran about calling the dead. Could the boy in Melisandre's vision be Robb?

Melisandre is looking for specific information in the flames but some of her visions come unbidden - especially if they concern her safety. The vision of Bran and Bloodraven may be such an unbidden vision, and I don't think Bloodraven can influence them. I think Bloodraven in turn may have visions of Melisandre, especially if Melisandre develops into a threat for him.

[mindchap]

The first time I read that chapter it annoyed me (I'm sure I thought "good lord ANOTHER POV!!!"), but the second and third read through it was one of my favourite chapters in ADWD. In particular the focus on "the trappings of power", which is a phrase that runs through my head with many of the other characters too, with all their pomp and pageantry.

I think it's interesting that her chapter is simply called "Melisandre" as opposed to a name like "The Red Priestess" or something, like so many of the other minor and secondary POV characters have.

I think that is a hint that she will be a permanent addition to the cast as of now rather than just a come and go POV. I just can't shake the feeling that she is inadvertently going to do more harm than good.

[Irelands Gemstone]

Bran was warned about calling the dead, could we see Bran inadvertantly, or accidentally falling to darkness? or becoming bad by doing just this, maybe trying to contact his dead brother, or father, or mother. I can see Bran going downhill, especially after Jojen paste.

[direwienerdog]

Bloodraven is more focused on a threat that is far North of the Wall, after reading the Mel chapters I have a lot more doubt about her powers, specifically, the fact that she doubts herself. She's depicted throughout the books as being so confident, then we see into her mind and realize it's all just a front, she really doesn't know what she sees, Bloodraven however seems to have a much greater focus on what really is threatening the realm, he may not be omnipotent, but he is definitely the most powerful character we have encountered so far.That being said as to your original question, no I don't think BR is showing her the visions she has but I think his magic is a part of the magic that protects the Wall, so maybe there are some magical "wires" getting crossed but that's verging into "completely theoretical with no proof of my own" territory. Sorry to be so confusing.

Bloodraven is showing Bran how to use his powers. Using Weirwood trees and animals to view not only the here and now but what the trees have seen past,present,and even future events. Much like Mel views events but ones that may be of more use and require less interpretation. We have seen Mel make many mistakes in her interpretations of fire gazing. I wouldn't be surprised if the her viewing of Bran and Bloodraven as servants of the Great Other is wrong too.After all Coldhands does resemble one of the wieghts but doesn't show the inate hatred of warmblooded that the white walker and wieghts do. Mel burns the 7 in Storms End and considers any gods but R'hlor as servants of the others.

[Frozentree]

Bran was warned about calling the dead, could we see Bran inadvertantly, or accidentally falling to darkness? or becoming bad by doing just this, maybe trying to contact his dead brother, or father, or mother. I can see Bran going downhill, especially after Jojen paste.

Jojen paste is a crackpot. Bran has eaten a few humans while warged in Summer, he would recognize the taste.

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

Jojen paste is a crackpot. Bran has eaten a few humans while warged in Summer, he would recognize the taste.

wait, what? People actually believe Bran was fed Jojen in a paste?

I do see Jojen dying early next book though.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

I think that is a hint that she will be a permanent addition to the cast as of now rather than just a come and go POV. I just can't shake the feeling that she is inadvertently going to do more harm than good.

I was thinking we simply needed a POV at the wall, since Jon, well you know.. died, coma, warged, whatever. So Mel is now that POV until someone else comes back?

[Beorn Snow]

I do see Jojen dying early next book though.

I don´t think Jojen dies until he goes back south. Isn´t that what he dreamed?

[Rooseman]

Doesn't Melisandre even say, that Bloodraven sees her when she looks at him?

But I do believe, that Bloodraven and Bran will somehow be involved with the Others (who I don't think are the pure "force of evil" that we expect).

Melisandre asking herself "Is this the enemy?" might be George wanting us to think "Oh good ol' stupid Melly, you don't know anything! Bran is a good guy! Another case of your misinterpreted visions..." when she's actually not that far off in this case.

[mindchap]

Jojen paste is a crackpot. Bran has eaten a few humans while warged in Summer, he would recognize the taste.

I'm gonna have to steal that line to use whenever I see that topic brought up. :)

wait, what? People actually believe Bran was fed Jojen in a paste?

I do see Jojen dying early next book though.

I think(hope) that theory was a joke to begin with and somebody ran with the idea. I personally don't think that, and the only argument for it is that Jojen hasn't been seen in the text since the Weirwood paste.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Jojen paste is a crackpot. Bran has eaten a few humans while warged in Summer, he would recognize the taste.

It goes further than that; the group eats "pork" that Coldhands supposedly acquired from a "sow", except Bran sees that Coldhands has actually been busy killing NW deserters, and the meat is never described by Bran as "pork", but rather he simply refers to it as red meat (most cooked meat from pigs being white, or brown if overcooked).

[Rooseman]

I think(hope) that theory was a joke to begin with and somebody ran with the idea. I personally don't think that, and the only argument for it is that Jojen hasn't been seen in the text since the Weirwood paste.

Not true, that's not the only argument.

- The COTF do practice blood sacrifice in order to increase their powers most like

- TWOW spoiler:

It's implied in Theon's chapter, that Bran wants Stannis to sacrifice Theon over a weirwood tree

- Jojen knows the exact time and circumstances of his death

- As they get closer to their destination, he grows more and more depressed

- There's that part where Coldhands butchers their elk, and Bran refuses to eat his meat because he "wouldn't feast on a friend" but then does it anyway

I don't have a fixed opinion on that theory myself, but it's not just a random speculation that came out of thin air.

[mindchap]

After reading D&E I can not believe any theory where Bloodraven is the bad guy, let alone force a kid to eat another kid. As for the pork, the men CH kills are the ones who have mutinied at Craster's, which started when they pointed out that he had a pig on the way in but it was gone when they came back through.

[kissdbyfire]

I always thought this vision was, to some degree, meant to show to Melisandre the connection between Bran and Jon. And, as usual, she doesn't get it.

[Rooseman]

After reading D&E I can not believe any theory where Bloodraven is the bad guy, let alone force a kid to eat another kid.

Who says he has to be a bad guy? Maybe he and Bran watched shitloads of history through the weirwoods and decided that humanity wasn't worth saving, because of all the brutality that's going on all the time? Kinda like the Faceless Men, who genuinely believe that death is more peaceful than life. From their POV, they're the total good guys.