Sansa Stark: Martin's "prince of Denmark"

[Minsc]

The two aren't necessarily connected. Yes, she understands her future duty. I'd say that she understands her duty exceptionally well, as I pointed in OP (by the way, OP means Original post, right?) But, that has nothing to do with her going behind her father's back. Precisely because I think she understands duties remarkably, she knows she should've listen to her father. That's her duty at the moment: not to disobey Ned. And yet, she disobeyed him very directly..

She because she is a child so she at times disobeys her parents similar to Bran, Arya, Robb, kid:Tyrion, and kid:Jaime.

[bbstark]

But, even if I'm right, is she guilty for not loving them? Does that make her a terrible person? That makes her a loner in my book, just like similar loners I met in real life. If you are/were a teenager, just think of other kids that don't/didn't care that much for their parents. And I'm sure everyone has at least one such a person to point out. Does it make them bad persons? In my experience, not at all. They grew rather normal people, with their own families. They never cease to take care of their parents (where they're still alive). But, they didn't love their parents that much, not nearly as much as I and other kids did and do love ours. Sansa, in my eyes, happens to be one of those kids, only in much, much more dramatic circumstances.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you know what you are talking about.

The text clearly shows Sansa's strong bond with her family. That strong bond is not incompatible with her falling in love with someone who is wrong for her, doesn't love her back, or her family dislikes.

Simple example: Did Romeo and Juliet hate their families and thus defied them and gotten married? No, obviously not, or the play would have been called "Romeo and Juliet run away together to get married against wishes of terrible, hateful families who don't understand them"

That's why it's a tragedy, because for Both R and J it was a choice between 2 opposing ideas, love for each other, or love for their respective families. If they had hated their families, the choice would have been easy, they would have lived, and we wouldn't have learned anything.

Sansa's story is not even interesting if she doesn't really love her family. It means her choice of Joffrey was easy for her, and the other implication would be that once she figures out who Joff truly is, she isn't thinking "oh what I fool I was not to trust my family", but "Oh I guess my family is not that bad afterall".

This would also make what happens in the other 4 books no sense whatsoever.

[Miodrag]

Sansa act only endangered Ned for factors she had no clue about as her father never told her and Arya about the real dangers they were all in. Moreover, the fact that she is normally obedient while Arya and Bran typically rebelled probably explains her actions. In how, she probably felt resentment that her loving father would never punish but only reward disobedient Arya while his actions come off as unfairly punishing her, the good, obedient daughter, thus she felt the right/need to disobey him even through she might love him.

I just gave a quick reread to the chapter in which Ned tells to his daughters he's sending them back to Winterfell. He was more than explicit in explaining them how dangerous KL is:

Father's mouth twitched strangely. "Sansa, I'm not sending you away for fighting, though the gods know I'm sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting."

Seems to me he was pretty clear on the matter, without going to details. And, for comparison sake, remember how Arya is genuinely worried for Ned after she overhears Varys and Illiryo? How she questions Desmond about the Ned's safety. True, Sansa didn't overheard two conspirators secretly discussing the fate of The Hand, but The Hand, and her father in that, just gave her a chilling summary of the danger they're all facing. And she's enraged for going back to Winterfell.

Now, once again, I don't think she's a terrible person. In fact, I think Martin made her an exceptional person, who's much more concerned with the biggest possible picture than with smaller ones. Her misfortune was that she was put in a dramatic situation (a choice of a sort, between staying in KL and returning to Winterfell) in such a young age. Sansa in 16 or 18 would be the same person as she was with 11, with all her love or the lack of, but she'd never make mistake she did in AGOT. And I believe she's going to realize it, and because of that realization, she'll be able to deal with her guilt over Ned's death much better.

[Miodrag]

She because she is a child so she at times disobeys her parents similar to Bran, Arya, Robb, kid:Tyrion, and kid:Jaime.

What other time she disobeyed them? I can't think of any. Even in 'trial' at The Trident, she tries not to disobey anyone; hence: "I don't remember, everything happened so fast". I really don't think she was disobedient child. On the contrary, she was very obedient. That's why her decision to go against Ned's command stands out even more.

[bbstark]

<snip>

Once again:

There is no point to argue that "Sansa is not a bad person because she doesn't love her family" because the text does not support the idea that she doesn't love her family.

Disobeying your father's orders does not imply that you do not love him.

I you want to argue that, you need to find other evidence.

[Minsc]

Father's mouth twitched strangely. "Sansa, I'm not sending you away for fighting, though the gods know I'm sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting."

None of that is what placed Ned into danger when she told Cersei, and how if Ned hadn't told Cersei about his knowledge of the incest and if Robert was't dead then nothing directly negative would have occurred.

Simply, you are going to extreme to argue that she doesn't love her father because she disobeyed him once while ignoring that Robb, Arya, and Bran all equally have disobeyed their parents through no one thinks they didn't love their mother and father.

What other time she disobeyed them? I can't think of any. Even in 'trial' at The Trident, she tries not to disobey anyone; hence: "I don't remember, everything happened so fast". I really don't think she was disobedient child. On the contrary, she was very obedient. That's why her decision to go against Ned's command stands out even more.

Even the most obedient child might disobey sometimes, especially when they notice that their constantly disobedient sibling is constantly disobeying yet never receives punishment but only rewards. Simply, blame Ned's weak parenting style which gives off strong hints of favoritism for helping encourage her to disobey.

[yolkboy]

What other time she disobeyed them? I can't think of any. Even in 'trial' at The Trident, she tries not to disobey anyone; hence: "I don't remember, everything happened so fast". I really don't think she was disobedient child. On the contrary, she was very obedient. That's why her decision to go against Ned's command stands out even more.

High up on Sansa's agenda was being obedient.

Even higher up was her dreams of romance with a handsome prince.

She was a teenager.

[bbstark]

High up on Sansa's agenda was being obedient.

Even higher up was her dreams of romance with a handsome prince.

She was a teenager.

It boggles my mind, to what extent people will distort Sansa's very normal teenage behavior into something sordid...

Arya's becoming much darker, and people have a lot less issues with that. (though that's neither here, nor there...)

Furthermore, It's actually quite emotionally abusive of parents to suggest that "if you do not obey me, you do not love me" to children. And btw. Ned wasn't that kind of father.

[Miodrag]

I'm sorry, but I don't think you know what you are talking about.

The text clearly shows Sansa's strong bond with her family. That strong bond is not incompatible with her falling in love with someone who is wrong for her, doesn't love her back, or her family dislikes.

Textual proof of that? In what instance, prior to her going behind Ned's back, text shows Sansa's strong bond with any member of her initial family? I can't recall any, though I could be wrong, of course. If you provide one, I'll be happy to discuss it. In the meantime, here's the line from the very end of the first Sansa chapter after Ned's imprisonment:

It was not until later that night, as she was drifting off to sleep, that Sansa realized she had forgotten to ask about her sister.

It doesn't say she's sorry because she forgot of Arya. Nor that she isn't sorry. Just that she realized, but not what is she going to do with that realization. And, if I remember correctly, she did nothing, at least nothing that we know of. Martin deliberately chose to put that line right there. One can say it shows her being not very connected to Arya, and Arya alone. I think it's indicative for Sansa's emotional profile as a whole.

And one more thing: when she sees what she'd done, she goes great lengths to right the wrong and save Ned. So yes, she's willing to sacrifice for her family (cause, asking Joff for anything isn't easy at all, let alone what she asks). But, the way I see it, it's more a reflection of her virtues as a person, than of her love for family members. And I definitely don't see how all this takes away the sense from her general arc. Joff was never an easy choice for her, just as she tells when arguing with Ned: "I know he isn't brave and gentle, but I want him and nobody else". I find nothing easy in that choice. Wrong, yes; easy, not at all.

[bbstark]

<snip>

I already began discussing it it in my first post, which you clearly didn't read, but I refer you again, here

[Miodrag]

@minsc

@bbstark

I'm sorry you're taking me so literally. I'm not saying: "Sansa disobeyed her father once, oh, she certainly doesn't love her family". I'm trying to put everything in context. That being:

1) She isn't a disobedient child for all we know, so that one time when she disobeys probably has some considerable importance. Now, it isn't important for the demise of Ned, cause he'd end up the same way even if Sansa didn't go to Cersei. Hence, the importance of that act has to be with Sansa.

2) She doesn't love Arya, or, if she does (it's hard to tell what's love and what's not in a simpler cases, let alone in this one), it's a rather strange form of love. She wishes Arya no harm, but let's say that she doesn't care that much about her sister. And the significance of that relation may be the verbatim for Sansa's relations in general, to her initial family at least.

3) She's so eager to leave her initial family and start her own.

4) Sandor Clegane, the person with the most dysfunctional family in all of Westeros, falls for her. And people with similar, or even identical traits (faults and virtues both; in fact, by psychology, faults often play even bigger role than virtues do), often fall in love with each other

When taking all of these together into consideration, even if you don't agree with me, I can't see why do you think it's such a stretch what I'm suggesting. And I don't think it's fair to picture me as a Sansa hater. If you want a comparison with Arya's arc, I'm all for that. In that case, I think Martin was inspired by 'Faust', which is nothing less dark than what I'm suggesting for Sansa.

[Miodrag]

I already began discussing it it in my first post, which you clearly didn't read, but I refer you again, here

Making a distinction between people that mean nothing to you and the people that actually mean something to you isn't a sign of love. And if it is, than, according to the quote you posted, she loves Jory also?

I'm ironic, of course: I just want to show what it means when something is taken literally. No, she surely doesn't equate Jory and Ned. But, even putting Ned in that count is a little chilling, don't you think? And yes, I know children do that. Or, maybe not? I never thought of my father that way. And we did have our differences, let's say.

[Mladen]

This simply doesn't work for me. With all due respect, I find this analysis very incomplete work on Sansa, where is missed the boig part of who she really is. Arguing about Sansa's disloyalty in a way like this is unproductive, because the main idea is logically wrong. Sansa does care for her family, much more than the rest of her family cares for her(beside Cat). Also, this idea of betrayal is for me old story, I find it uninteresting, since for betrayal you need intention, and that's what no one can prove.

All in all, this is another analysis of how Sansa is disconnected from her family. Well, guess what, entire Stark family is somewhat disconnected. there is an indication that Brandon slept with girl his brother loved, Lyanna escaped with Rhaegar, Ned seems closer to Robert than to his actual family, Robb left hios sisters on Lannister mercy... I mean, they love ecah other, but their differences set them apart too...

[Miodrag]

This simply doesn't work for me. With all due respect, I find this analysis very incomplete work on Sansa, where is missed the boig part of who she really is. Arguing about Sansa's disloyalty in a way like this is unproductive, because the main idea is logically wrong. Sansa does care for her family, much more than the rest of her family cares for her(beside Cat). Also, this idea of betrayal is for me old story, I find it uninteresting, since for betrayal you need intention, and that's what no one can prove.

All in all, this is another analysis of how Sansa is disconnected from her family. Well, guess what, entire Stark family is somewhat disconnected. there is an indication that Brandon slept with girl his brother loved, Lyanna escaped with Rhaegar, Ned seems closer to Robert than to his actual family, Robb left hios sisters on Lannister mercy... I mean, they love ecah other, but their differences set them apart too...

Maybe I lack a proper word for what Sansa did? If it's not a betrayal, what would you call it?

And you're right about the Starks, there is something wrong about their connection. They do love each other, but they aren't as connected as they should've been. Why would Sansa be the exception? They're all loners in a way. That's one of the reasons I'm surprised people seem to think I have some sort of agenda against Sansa. That can't be further from the truth.

[yolkboy]

Maybe I lack a proper word for what Sansa did? If it's not a betrayal, what would you call it?

I must agree that it was a form of betrayal, to the letter of definition.

[Mladen]

Maybe I lack a proper word for what Sansa did? If it's not a betrayal, what would you call it?

And you're right about the Starks, there is something wrong about their connection. They do love each other, but they aren't as connected as they should've been. Why would Sansa be the exception? They're all loners in a way. That's one of the reasons I'm surprised people seem to think I have some sort of agenda against Sansa. That can't be further from the truth.

Simple disobedience. Betrayal is the word for what Boltons, or Freys did to Robb, or Tywin to Targaryens. The word betrayal requires intention, desire to betray somebody, and all Sansa wanted is her father to let her stay in the city. It's not like she knew he will be imprisoned and all those men killed for what she's done.

Sansa isn't exception, but people make her. When you compare how much she thinks of her family, and how much they of her, you simply have to realize that Sansa is so connected to her roots, and that she loves her family above everyone. Sansa was naive 11 year-old child who made a small mistake that had huge consequences. That's all.

[Miodrag]

Simple disobedience. Betrayal is the word for what Boltons, or Freys did to Robb, or Tywin to Targaryens. The word betrayal requires intention, desire to betray somebody, and all Sansa wanted is her father to let her stay in the city. It's not like she knew he will be imprisoned and all those men killed for what she's done.

Sansa isn't exception, but people make her. When you compare how much she thinks of her family, and how much they of her, you simply have to realize that Sansa is so connected to her roots, and that she loves her family above everyone. Sansa was naive 11 year-old child who made a small mistake that had huge consequences. That's all.

Did Hamlet love his father? Well, he obviously did. Only, he actually didn’t. I mean, he did love him to a certain extent, but that extent wasn’t enough to inspire Hamlet to finalize the revenge. So, did he love his father?

All kinds of experts are trying to answer that question for about four centuries. And I don’t think they came up with a conclusive answer. Starks' inter-relations aren't less complicated in my book. Maybe I made a mistake of making a statement that seems rather explicit: “Sansa doesn’t love her family”. I mean, I tried not to be conclusive, and not for Sansa’s or anyone’s sake, but because love is a pretty abstract field in and out of itself. If I failed, as in, if I made an explicit remark, my bad. What I do continue to stand by, is that Sansa’s feelings for her family, and Ned especially, didn’t prevent her from going behind her father’s back.

If comparing, I don’t think Bran or Arya would do what Sansa did. As for Robb, under some extraordinary circumstances (similar to ones Sansa was in), I’m not so sure he wouldn’t pull something similar – you’re right, Robb didn’t seem to care all that much for his imprisoned sisters.

And, with all due respect, but I think you're oversimplifying it with 'little mistake that had huge consequences'. When your father reminds you that three people you knew all your life and came with you to other side of the world to protect you, were killed, and he therefore sends you back home to safety, well, acting against his wishes is something bigger than 'little mistake', regardless of the consequences.

All due respect once again, but labeling Sansa naive is yet another simplification, because that has nothing to do with age. Brienne is naive, and she's a grown woman. If Sansa was naive at 11, she'd be naive at 15. Being inexperienced is one thing, being naive is another. Naive people don't get less naive with age, though they usually think they do; they're 'an easy prey' in their 50s just like they were in their teen years.

About Sansa being connected to her roots, that's what I wrote in OP. I think she's way more connected than other Starks, who just happen to be more vocal in their connection. And by roots, I mean roots: Winterfell and the Stark name. Something that, for yet another comparison, Ned, with all his nobility and honor and human qualities, wasn't that much connected to in the first place.

[Mladen]

If comparing, I don’t think Bran or Arya would do what Sansa did. As for Robb, under some extraordinary circumstances (similar to ones Sansa was in), I’m not so sure he wouldn’t pull something similar – you’re right, Robb didn’t seem to care all that much for his imprisoned sisters.

Certain about this? Maybe not in the same situation, but disobedience is something Arya is known for, and Bran's disobedience, well, we know what happened. This is 'blaming the victim' scenario in which Sansa is quilty for her father's death. The disobedience act she has commited was done in best intentions, didn't change a lot, and certainly had nothing with Ned's death, his imprisonment yes, but death no.

And, with all due respect, but I think you're oversimplifying it with 'little mistake that had huge consequences'. When your father reminds you that three people you knew all your life and came with you to other side of the world to protect you, were killed, and he therefore sends you back home to safety, well, acting against his wishes is something bigger than 'little mistake', regardless of the consequences.

He warned her about Jaime and Robert, but he somehow forgot to mention Cersei. We can argue that he should have mentioned her explicitally, knowing how Sansa is fond of the Queen. Ned didn't bother to explain his daughters the true seriousness of situation, he just told them they are going back and counted for obedience. Perhaps if he explained them better how exactly dangerous situation is, and that as Cersei said in TV show 'everyone who isn't us is an enemy', Sansa would stay in the room, and most likely be imprisoned nontheless.

All due respect once again, but labeling Sansa naive is yet another simplification, because that has nothing to do with age. Brienne is naive, and she's a grown woman. If Sansa was naive at 11, she'd be naive at 15. Being inexperienced is one thing, being naive is another. Naive people don't get less naive with age, though they usually think they do; they're 'an easy prey' in their 50s just like they were in their teen years.

Naivite is something natural for 11 year-old girls, and I don't know any girl, or boy at that age who wasn't naive to some extent. But, naivite stops with growing up... Why we stop being naive? Because life teaches us there are bad things out there, and that people can actually hurt us. Brienne is naive because she hasn't suffered, or was betrayed like Sansa. Sansa lost lion's share of her naivite due to what Cersei and Joffrey did to her and her family, and we see how that naivite is lost in Vale.

[Miodrag]

Certain about this? Maybe not in the same situation, but disobedience is something Arya is known for, and Bran's disobedience, well, we know what happened. This is 'blaming the victim' scenario in which Sansa is quilty for her father's death. The disobedience act she has commited was done in best intentions, didn't change a lot, and certainly had nothing with Ned's death, his imprisonment yes, but death no.

Can't be 100 percent certain, of course, and we'll never know for sure, but yeah, I believe Arya and Bran wouldn't go behind their father's back, while Robb would be capable of such a thing. Just like, for the opposite comparison, Sansa would never occupy Hodor's mind (especially after she'd see how horrified he was), and she'd never slit a guard's throat. They have their differences, Stark kids. And one of the differences is the level of obedience. Sansa is obedient, Arya and Bran were not. But, I'm sure we'll agree there's a difference between simple disobedience and going behind your father's back. Arya and Bran were doing the former all the time, but they never did the latter.

The thing is, legion of Martin's characters are in for some heavy soul-searching and self-questioning. One of them grieves he didn't die with his foster brother he himself betrayed. The other one is desperately trying to answer to himself: "Was I anything more than just a hand?" And look at Jon in ASOS. When he meets Mance, he pulls from his soul something that is true enough to be convincing: his lasting grudge (some stronger word would fit better here, but I can't think of any at the moment) against the house he grew up in. And at the end of ASOS, when he finds out about the Red Wedding, he asks himself (not directly, of course, but through Stannis' offer): "Is that what I wanted?" And of course his answer isn't: "Yeah, that's what I wanted for those who denied me the place among them". But, surprisingly, the answer isn't this, either: "No, that is something I never want to benefit from in any shape or form". Not until Ghost returns, at least. Or look at Davos, the guy who lost four of his sons in Stannis' campaign, and yet he can't help but continue to play the father figure (on a subconscious level) to Stannis, who, in his turn, never had a proper father figure in his life, but had brothers he either failed (Robert, by not telling him about the twincest) or killed (Renly, though he's possibly unaware of the extent of his personal involvement in Renly's death). If we're to ask Davos: "Did you love your sons?", he'd certainly say: "Of course I did!" But, if we're to offer him: "All your sons are brought back from dead, intact, as if they were never harmed, but on the condition that Stannis takes their place, i.e. Stannis is the one who perishes in wildfire and his cause is lost for good; do you accept this?", I'm not sure what he'd choose in that hypothetical situation.

Sansa is no exception in my book. She has some soul-searching and soul-questioning to do, as well. And I don't think her answers are going to be: "Well, I made a mistake with grave consequences, but I was naive, and a kid, and there's nothing more to be said about it". If she's naive, as in, if naivety is the root cause for her actions in AGOT, than she has nothing to question herself over, at least for now. Which would make her a stand-out among Martin's characters. Maybe my explanation (that she doesn't love her family members that much) isn't the right one, but I'm positive, like 110% positive, that neither her naivety is the explanation. And I'm even more sure Martin doesn't see her naivety as a root cause for her actions. There's more there.

And I don't think Sandor loves Sansa for her naivety. He's in love with her, he's not tutoring her. First, if naivety is his turn-on, I'm sure he had a legion of other girls to fall for before he ever met Sansa (this is a speculation, of course, but nevertheless). Second, if she isn't naive any more, as many also claim, what do you think will happen if they ever meet again? Will Sandor be like: "You're not naive any more, and I don't love you any more". I don't think so. Just remember his reaction from the end of ASOS to the news about Sansa: "The little bird shat on Imp's head and flew away." That doesn't strike me as a description of naivety.

And no, I'm not blaming Sansa for being a victim. Firstly because, up to that point, she wasn't a victim. She's a victim afterwards, and the agony she goes through in KL after Ned's death is second to none. But, I don't blame her also because she didn't contribute that much even to Ned's imprisonment (let alone his execution, which she actually went great lengths to prevent). Even if she didn't go to Cersei, I'm sure Littlefinger (nor Cersei, for that matter) wouldn't let Ned stay in charge as a regent. So, chances are, Ned would be imprisoned one way or another, in that moment or the next one, even if Sansa obediently waited to travel back home. Consequences just don't play any role in what I'm claiming. I mean, if we judge actions by consequences, than Cat's guilty for the outbreak of the war, and Theon is guilty for Red Wedding, and Robb is guilty for the destruction of The Northern rebellion, and Lyanna was guilty for the death of her father and brother. In all these cases (and many more, these were just from the top of my head), these people made mistakes that lead to consequences nobody could foresee. But, mistakes they made, and their respective responsibilities they're aware of. And it's obviously a common theme for Martin, to make characters pay much bigger price for their mistakes. (That's what he like to do with 'good guys', or, in the case of Theon, not outright villains; with Lannisters, who were designed as villains at the beginning of the story, he's making them pay for their sins: Tywin was killed on the toilet by the son he despised, and Jaime's about to face god knows what and he's without the part of the body he himself considered his best and possibly only worthy part.)

About Ned's warning: he warned her about Robert and Jaime; and she does what: goes to the woman who's Robert's wife and Jaime's twin sister? The woman who ordered the killing of Sansa's direwolf, on top of that. Sorry, but I see a little of 'blaming the victim' here, only Ned's the victim in your case. I think he warned his daughters enough.

About Brienne: even after being almost raped, and after being thrown to 'fight' against a bear, and after witnessing a shadow-assassination of the man he loved (not to mention the fact that she loved Renly, despite being who knows how many times let down and outright mocked by men), she has a hard time killing a person, even if that person is a disgusting piece of work. She kills not sooner that her life is at immediate danger. Yes, she wasn't 'betrayed', but she had countless opportunities to loose any respect for human nature, and yet, she never did. (Until now, at least; we'll see what's going to happen when she leads Jaime to un-Cat.)

[The Sleeper]

To the OP.

This is an interesting and fresh approach, but I believe it ultimately misses the mark. Sansa has always been detached by dispostion and station. This ultimately keeps people at arms length. Her "courtesy armor" has existed long before she came to King's Landing. Does that mean that she doesn't love her family? In my opinion, no. She clearly has concern and affection for them. It does mean, however, that she doesn't share the reciprocal emotional bond the others have. In fact, the only two people she does have that bond with, the ones that get through her armor and elicit genuine emotional responses form her are Arya and the Hound.

I also don't believe that she was ever particularly obedient or dutiful, but rather that her obedience is circumstancial. That armor hides things. She didn't accept her place in the world because her parents told her to. She did it because she liked it. The one instance her father's command came against with something she was groomed to want and believed she deserved, she went against all social conventions to get it. Underneath that armor she was as headstrong and wilfull as Arya.