Summerqueen Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 It may be an interesting read. But a long one. And you read it already? Care to summarize it in a post, or any other manageable form? You know, addressing just the points raised in this discussion....No. It is a lot of work to ask someone else to do, when I can't even read a book 3 or 5 Tyrion chapter where he doesn't pity himself, justify his actions, or expose his bitterness, yet you don't see any of it (you seem to want to change people's minds, but you want them to do the work as though you were open to changing yours, which is not the case). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isiman Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Robert and Cersei both seem to understand that martial rape is wrong, even if Bob was morally repugnant enough to continue to do it. Quotes please.Robert seemed worried about Jaime's reaction, considering the Kingslayer's temperament, not else.Also, Cersei is obviously not the best source in any of this considering she is the victim and besides IIRC she doesn't care at the least about those kind of elements when it concerns other women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Quotes please.Robert seemed worried about Jaime's reaction, considering the Kingslayer's temperament, not else.Also, Cersei is obviously not the best source in any of this considering she is the victim and besides IIRC she doesn't care at the least about those kind of elements when it concerns other women.Cersei directly remembers about how when she confronted Robert over this that he would look down ashamed and attempt to excuse his actions. Thus, showing he has some understanding of what he did was wrong. IIRC, Mormont posted the quote earlier in the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hawk Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 He is a good guy in my book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isiman Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Cersei directly remembers about how when she confronted Robert over this that he would look down ashamed and attempt to excuse his actions. Thus, showing he has some understanding of what he did was wrong. IIRC, Mormont posted the quote earlier in the thread.That goes with Robert's idea of him being a hero, of him not having to rape anyone.It doesn't really say much about whether it's moraly wrong in Westeros to rape your wife, which again it would be nonsense in a Medieval world.Cersei's might be talking about that aspect of their relationship as a way to answer Robert's perplexity regarding how she acts in the marriage, not else.If I remember well, she is actually bitter about HOW he actually takes her, not really the fact that he does by itself because she understands that willingly or not she must conced.His disgust towards Joffrey, drunkness, Lyanna, seems to be also why she hates him.Bottom line is that, consent of the wife as in all Medieval worlds is not considered relevant in Westeros.That is why young women seems to be educated from early age to obey their husbands' wishes, and it also explains Sansa's general thoughts/behaviour in her wedding night's chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gannicus Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 No one has argued that Tyrion is a psychopath or complete monster, and he was hardly was at a terrible place at the start of the series seeing how daddy Tywin was still providing almost everything he needed. For example, I would argue that Sam was at much worse place then Tyrion.Tyrion wasn't at a great place to start the series.How do you mean Sam was in a worse place. Physically Sam was joining the nights watch. From an emotional perspective at least Sam had a mother who loved him.Robert and Cersei both seem to understand that martial rape is wrong, even if Bob was morally repugnant enough to continue to do it.Well Tyrion didn't rape Sansa, so it seems irrelevant to this discussion.Tyrion calls her false and is bitter against her in ADWD. Next, he doesn't care about losing Winterfell in how after killing Tywin he is focused solely on taking Casterly Rock and no longer cares about Winterfell.He is hardly bitter toward Sansa in ADWD. The bitterness he does show is likely do to the fact that he thinks she may have killed Joffrey and let him take the fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 That goes with Robert's idea of him being a hero, of him not having to rape anyone.It doesn't really say much about whether it's moraly wrong in Westeros to rape your wife, which again it would be nonsense in a Medieval world.If it wasn't considered morally wrong then Robert wouldn't feel ashamed about his actions. Moreover, your first statement contradicts your first point in how if wasn't consider possible for someone to rape their wife then his actions wouldn't contradict his idea of himself being a hero.Tyrion wasn't at a great place to start the series.How do you mean Sam was in a worse place. Physically Sam was joining the nights watch. From an emotional perspective at least Sam had a mother who loved him.Sam was much more subject to mistreatment at the start of the series then Tyrion, seeing how while Tywin might not like Tyrion he hasn't threatened to kill Tyrion at the beginning of AGOT. Tyrion had a brother, uncles, and an aunt that all seem like the cared for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fauch Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Robert was, in general ashamed of how lousy a King he had become. Raping your wife might have been considered not the nicest thing in the world to do, but we see and hear multiple times during the series that a husband has a certain right to his wives body - this is also what happened in the real world during the middle ages.If Tyrion had forced Sansa to have sex with him, hardly anyone (except for the Starks and their retainers of course) would have considered that rape. In fact Tyrion is made fun of for not getting Sansa with child. But the Stark fraction would argue that the whole marriage is illegimate, not that Tyrion, as Sansas husband, isn't allowed to touch her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fauch Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 We don't know what Tywin would have done to Cersei if she'd refused to marry Willas Tyrrell. We do know exactly what Tywin would have done to Tyrion if he'd refused to marry Sansa, because Tywin spelled it out for him in ASOS:"If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who'd gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock..."IMO, that's not a threat so fearful that it justifies Tyrion becoming Tywin's accomplice in what Tyrion ADMITTED was a cruel act, and agreeing to receive the benefits (Winterfell and a pretty bride). I think that if you choose to be an accomplice in a bad act and agree to receive the rewards of that act, you share in the guilt of the wrongdoing as well as its rewards. IMO, Tyrion was offered a clear-cut choice between a better act (refusing to participate in Tywin's forced-marriage plan) and a worse one (agreeing to help force an unwanted marriage and sex on Sansa). He agreed to the worse act even though he was not threatened with anything worse than a lower-ranking bride if he refused. Hence there was no force involved and he freely chose the worse act - and therefore, IMO, he forfeits his right to be considered an unqualified "good person" by doing so.Which is not to say that I think Tyrion is an unqualified evil man either. He has good points. But he tends to pity himself for his hard life, and therefore to exonerate himself for everything he does wrong...and this tendency to self-pity WILL lead him to be unredeemable if he keeps it up.Yet, after marrying Sansa, he doesn't touch her. In fact he ruins Tywins plan to the fullest, by not consummating the marriage, because now Sansa can't be married to someone else.Sansa dislikes him, but also remarks how Tyrion is "kind" to her.He (and the hound) were the only people who kept Joffrey from savaging her during aCoK. Let's be honest here: Out of all the possible candidates Sansa would/could have married against her will, who would have treated her "better" than Tyrion?Let's also be honest and talk about how Sansa despises him for two reasons: Him being a Lannister, and him being a dwarf, both of which are 100% not his fault?Sansa would have happily married Joffrey for the first part of the series, even when it was plain evident (yes even to her) that Joff was a horrible person and a monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gannicus Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Sam was much more subject to mistreatment at the start of the series then Tyrion, seeing how while Tywin might not like Tyrion he hasn't threatened to kill Tyrion at the beginning of AGOT. Tyrion had a brother, uncles, and an aunt that all seem like the cared for him.Well apart from Tywin having Tysha gang raped and showing virtually no affection for him.Sure, Jaime loved him and looked after him while he was around but he left Casterly Rock when Tyrion was still young.I'm sure Tyrions uncles and aunts treated him fine when they were around but who is more likely to turn out OK.A kid with no mother and a jerk for a father, or a kid with a loving mother and jerk for a father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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