Tyrion is a good person

[Panos Targaryen]

I ike Tyrion the character but to pretend he's just a good person turned bad because of external influence and situations out of his control is rather misguided.

While there's something to be said about him going against his baser needs, you don't get cool points for not being a rapist. Not raping doesn't inmediately make you a good person. I suggest you thread carefully on this point. The mods are very strict with posts involving this particular topic.

Let's face it. He didn’t do it out of a sense of responsibility towards the Wall or as a way to hold his promise to the Old Bear. It was certainly a clever rouse but Tyrion benefitted directly from sending them away. With Slynt gone he gained full control of the City Watch (something that would have saved Ned during his time as Hand) by appointing someone loyal to him exclusively. More importantly, Tyrion promised the Old Bear to give an account of the hardships the NW was facing, but when he became Hand and had power at his disposal, what did he do for the Wall?

He might disdain them but he certainly uses pretty vicious methods himself. Example- When he kidnaps Tommen and then led Cercei to believe that he will suffer as Alayaya does, including the beatings and the rapes. Later when he finds out that Alayaya had been whipped he contemplated doing the same to Tommen or else everybody would have seen that his threats were empty and perceived him as weak. Pretty vicious if you ask me, considering what a sweet kid Tommen is.

This was rather nice of him, but it begs the question- would he have done this had Jon not asked him to help Bran? Not to mention that he suspects from the very beginning that Cersei and Jaime are behind Bran’s accident and never shows any particular regret about doing nothing.

That shows him to be a very conflicted character not a good person. It contrasts with something Ned told Jon once: Some men are not worth having. A bannerman that is unjust or cruel dishonor himself as much as his liege Lord (paraphrasing here) A good man like Ned would probably balk and refuse to use a person like Allar Deem, a grayer one like Tyrion is 100% willing to use them for his own purposes even if he is aware of the immoral aspect of their employment and conduct.

I honestly don't understand how this is supposed to make him a good person.

After all the cruel things Tyrion has done from AGOT are we to conclude that he's a good person because he occasionally show Penny some kindness? I don't think so.

Why? I am in no way implying rape is a good thing. It is a vile act, the lowest of the low. I don't want any mods to think I'm endorsing it or anything like that.

[Winterfellian]

Okay, I can accept that. But on the whiter part of grey.

Didn't GRRM described Tyrion as his grayest of the gray?

ETA-

Why? I am in no way implying rape is a good thing. It is a vile act, the lowest of the low. I don't want any mods to think I'm endorsing it or anything like that.

I wasn't speaking of that precise post or implying that you advocate for rape. It was merely a friendly advice that might be of use to you if you are going to stick with that "Tyrion is a good person because he didn't rape Sansa" defense.

[Panos Targaryen]

Didn't GRRM described Tyrion as his grayest of the gray?

As this discussion proves, he was probably right :)

[Kittykatknits]

Such as?

- Mocking the NW for the lulz

- fantasizing about burning his sister and father alive

- breaking the singer's fingers

- mocking Masha Heddle's death

- planning to destroy the Vale to get revenge on a single person.

- poisoning his sister

-threatening to rape his nephew

-sending the Antler Men to Joff without a trial

-hitting the woman he claims to love

-killing the woman he claims to love

-killing his father

-participating in the forced marriage of Sansa

-killing a singer and having him put in to a bowl of brown

Notice I didn't even touch Dance and this is a pretty long list.

[Greywolf2375]

Okay, I can accept that. But on the whiter part of grey.

How can he be on the "whiter part of grey" and still have done these things?

Good people don't murder the prostitute they hired.

Good people don't murder their father.

Good people don't send other humans to be part of bowls of brown.

Good people don't to lie to their own brother about killing his own nephew.

Good people don't poison their own sister.

[Jory Cassel]

Very well, you have your opinion and I have mine. I respect yours, I just believe that in a world where rape isn't considered a vile crime, as it is common for soldiers to rape in war, and Tywin encouraged his soldiers to rape and brutalize people, not raping someone isn't simply a no-brainer as it is in our world and time.

did I miss something? Stannis gelds the soldiers who commited rape after the battle beyond the wall, rapists are sent to the wall and Randyll Tarly gelds rapists as well, rape is definitely considered a crime, the fact that Tywin is a monster that lacks empathy does not change that.

[Eating My Wings]

I've never heard anyone say Tyrion was evil...

I do.

I don't hold the stew-bard against Tyrion. He (bard) could have had Shae executed for no reason but his own greed.

Killing a blackmailer is still a murder.

1) Not raping Sansa, when doing so would make him Lord of Winterfell.

Will I get a medal for not pushing a boy under a bus?

2) Sending all the members of the City Watch who participated in the atrocity of killing Robert's bastards, and specifically arranging the death of the gold cloak who killed the baby, Allar Deem.

Later he threatened to rape another kid. The affair had damaged the public image of the regime and that's all.

3) His disgust at Cercei's vicious political tactics.

So why did he do his best to keep her in power?

4) Helping Bran with his saddle.

What a tough question! A family or a saddle he would ride... once? Have he even ridden the damn thing? Ty decided that the boy could only have the latter.

5) "And why would I ever need your Allar Deem, Lord Slynt? Tyrion thought. I have a hundred of my own. He wanted to laugh; he wanted to weep; most of all, he wanted Shae." He is disturbed by the evil that surrounds him, and to cope with it, he uses humor, especially cynical humor.

Typical Ty. Laments about the world being bad while doing absolutely nothing to change that.

6) His kindness towards Tysha, and his hatred for his father, which is due to what Tywin did to her.

So, his wife lies in front of him, bruised and bleeding from all the possible places, and gets brutally raped by dozens of men. She probably begs her husband for help, but he is too busy getting hard. When he comes closer, she whispers: "Why... is this happening? Tyrion, please..." And then he rapes her. Yup, a dream boyfriend.~

7) Even after Tywin's death, he shows kindness to Penny, and feels sorry for her ("She deserves better than a pig")

He is pretty mean to her most of the time.

[Panos Targaryen]

did I miss something? Stannis gelds the soldiers who commited rape after the battle beyond the wall, rapists are sent to the wall and Randyll Tarly gelds rapists as well, rape is definitely considered a crime, the fact that Tywin is a monster that lacks empathy does not change that.

Yes, it is considered immoral, but few people begrudge Tywin for his inhuman tactics from the lords and commanders we get to see.

[Minsc]

did I miss something? Stannis gelds the soldiers who commited rape after the battle beyond the wall, rapists are sent to the wall and Randyll Tarly gelds rapists as well, rape is definitely considered a crime, the fact that Tywin is a monster that lacks empathy does not change that.

Also Tyrion's own beloved brother thinks to himself with disgust about soldiers who committ rape, thus even among the Lannisters the idea of using rape as a tactic isn't likely accepted by all of them.

[Kittykatknits]

Didn't GRRM described Tyrion as his grayest of the gray?

ETA-

I wasn't speaking of that precise post or implying that you advocate for rape. It was merely a friendly advice that might be of use to you if you are going to stick with that "Tyrion is a good person because he didn't rape Sansa" defense.

As this discussion proves, he was probably right :)

Yes, he did.

http://www.sfsite.com/01a/gm95.htm

Even the villains... Certainly I have my favourites. Tyrion Lannister is my favourite. He is the grayest of the gray. In every conventional sense, he is on the wrong side but you have to agree with some of the things he is doing while loathing others. He is very smart and witty, and that makes him fun to write.

Bold emphasis mine.

[David Selig]

When did Tyrion show disgust of Cersei's vicious political tactics? That would've been quote hypocritical since he was doing pretty much the same as her....

[Panos Targaryen]

- Mocking the NW for the lulz

He believed what 99% of the realm believed. How could he know the Others and Wights were true at that point? And if I remember correctly, he changed his opinion of the NW later on.

- fantasizing about burning his sister and father alive

...who treated him worse than a piece of trash. Rememeber the story Oberyn Martell said to Tyrion about what Cersei did to him when he was a baby? And Tywin has said multiple times to Tyrion about how he wishes he could disown him. How could Tyrion NOT hate them? They are vile human beings, both of them.

- breaking the singer's fingers

A douchebag moment for Tyrion, no argument there.

- mocking Masha Heddle's death

It was shortly after his imprisonment at the Eyrie, Tyrion was feeling angry and cynical at the moment. But as a light grey character, he can have his good moments, and his douchebag moments.

- planning to destroy the Vale to get revenge on a single person.

Those were just empty words to get the hill tribes on his side. I don't think he ever intended to destroy the Vale.

- poisoning his sister

Who was a vile and cruel person.

-threatening to rape his nephew

He never meant it, it was just to scare Joffrey.

-sending the Antler Men to Joff without a trial

Who were planning to give KL to Stannis, whose army would have sacked the city, killing hundreds.

-hitting the woman he claims to love

Tyrion has moments of cruelty, that's one of them. And Shae's mocking of him reminded him of Tywin and Cersei at that moment, and he just snapped.

-killing the woman he claims to love

who betrayed him and mocked him in front of the entire court, and then caught her in his father's bed.

-killing his father

Who has taken EVERYTHING from him.

-participating in the forced marriage of Sansa

Errr, he was forced as well. How could he say no to Tywin? He even tried to refuse him

-killing a singer and having him put in to a bowl of brown

A vile act, I agree.

[Panos Targaryen]

Yes, he did.

http://www.sfsite.com/01a/gm95.htm

Bold emphasis mine.

Hey, I never said he didn't say that.

[Guest]

• Tyrion trying to cripple a certain bard. Talk about disproportionate repercussions.
  
• Tyrion intending to have the Vale reduced to ruins and ashes.
  
• Tyrion not showing any compassion about Masha Heddle
  

Are we talking about the bard he had killed because he threatened to tell Tywin about Shae (which would result in her death) if Tyrion didn't arrange for one of the other singers to have an accident? Because I don't think Tyrion protecting Shae and another random innocent singer counts as a bad act.

As for the Vale - they tried to murder him. He was not guilty of what they accused him of. They wanted to toss him out the moon door and it didn't matter what he said, if Bronn had not agreed to back him they would have killed him. Of course he wants the Vale gone or under new management, Lysa's crazy as all get out.

I don't remember anything having to do wtih Heddle and Tyrion.

And as for Shae's death...I'll admit that it was horrifying, but not because he killed Shae. It was the way that he killed her was horrifying. Shae sold him out, and told lies about him (knowing it would kill him) for money, a house and a knight to marry. I'm pretty sure that's grounds for a beheading by Westerosi justice standards since she gave false testimony that would have lead to Tyrion being dead.

[Pero the first of His name]

“It might please m’lord to strangle you. That’s how I served my last whore. Do you think your

master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me.” This time,

when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted.

Sorry, i do not see rape here, just a moment of intimidation. You could argue that this implies that he strangled her all during having sex with her but i do not see it.

[Minsc]

As for the Vale - they tried to murder him. He was not guilty of what they accused him of. They wanted to toss him out the moon door and it didn't matter what he said, if Bronn had not agreed to back him they would have killed him. Of course he wants the Vale gone or under new management, Lysa's crazy as all get out.

I don't see how him being mistakenly accussed of his family's crimes justifies him desiring the destruction of the Vale, remember as much as Tyrion knows his family might have had something to do with Jon Arryn's death and the attempted murder of Bran.

[Pero the first of His name]

Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin is a vile act.

Catelyn killing Aegon is worse and its a similar situation. How many mentions does that get?

Tyrion did some bad things (not as many as some ``leading`` people on this forum think tho) but you judge him very differently from many other characters.

[Chaircat Meow]

When did Tyrion show disgust of Cersei's vicious political tactics? That would've been quote hypocritical since he was doing pretty much the same as her....

Tyrion does show some disgust for Cersei's murder of Robert's bastards no ... (I understand there was some confusion if she ordered it, but he thinks she did iirc) when he packs off Slynt and Deem.

Also his attitude to some of Tywin's enormities.

[Winterfellian]

Those were just empty words to get the hill tribes on his side. I don't think he ever intended to destroy the Vale.

Actually, this is completely wrong. In ASOS when the small council is discussing the Vale of Arryn, Tyrion tells his father to give him the men to sort it out thinking he still has some debts to score there. His plan just isn’t accepted because Tywin and LF had already agreed on the latter courting and marrying Lysa.

[Minsc]

Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin is a vile act.

Catelyn killing Aegon is worse and its a similar situation. How many mentions does that get?

Tyrion did some bad things (not as many as some ``leading`` people on this forum think tho) but you judge him very differently from many other characters.

I have seen Catelyn get criticism for killing Aegon, despite most acknowledging that she was insane at that moment. Moreover, excuse me while I chuckle based on the idea that people are harsher on Tyrion then they are of Catelyn.