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Blue Winter Rose - Sansa Stark?


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#1 Roadside Rose

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 01:42 AM

We all know how the blue winter rose has been referenced along with Lyanna Stark. Lyanna loved the smell of those roses. The crown Rhaegar gave Lyanna at the tourney at Harrenhal had blue winter roses. Even her crypt at Winterfell had a garland of blue winter roses.

But there is another character who seems to represent blue winter roses, and that is the Stark maiden Bael the Bard ran off with. Bael asked the Lord of Winterfell for the most beautiful flower blooming in the Winterfell gardens as a reward. The Lord of Winterfell believed he meant the blue winter rose. But the next day, Bael ran off with Stark's only daughter.

I believe the 'blue winter rose' does not exclusively mean Lyanna, it means the most beautiful Stark maiden from Winterfell. And blue-eyed beautiful Sansa Stark seems like the current 'blue winter rose' of Winterfell.

One of the most discussed quote pertaining to the blue rose is the one related to Dany in the House of the Undying;

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire.


I think majority of the readers believe the 'blue flower' represents Jon Snow at the Wall who will play some role in Dany's life. Some even believe this quote has to do with Dany's three (past, future) husbands (Drogo, a Greyjoy, and Jon Snow) because of the last line 'bride of fire'. But I don't think this is related to love or marriage.
The 'blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice' could also represent Sansa Stark growing up. When Ned was beheaded using his own sword 'Ice', it represented a turning point in the life of Sansa Stark. She grew up from a child with illusions of the world, into a young maiden. I think Sansa will play some role in Dany's story, and it probably won't end well.

I also feel the 'chink in a wall of ice' represents how Sansa was the chink in Winterfell's armor. She was the vulnerability of Ned Stark that unintentionally caused Ned Stark to get beheaded, resulting in the eventual fall of Winterfell.


--------------------------------

Updated: Another similarity between Sansa and the Undying quote
"Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces".
- Tyrion Lannister, contemplating his soon-to-be-bride Sansa Stark

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . .

---------------------------------
Updated:

Dany sees a blue flower growing from a ‘chink in a wall of ice’. The ‘chink in the wall of ice’ phrase can be compared to ‘chink in the armor’. The armor is courtesy. And the first time Tyrion reflects how Sansa’s courtesy is like a castle wall. The second time, Tyrion reflects how Sansa’s courtesy is like the Wall of Ice. This is a kind of syllogism, where courtesy is compared to a lady’s armor. And courtesy is also compared to the Wall of Ice. Hence, the armor is like a Wall of Ice.

Tyrion comparing Sansa’s courtesy to a castle wall,


That seemed to anger him. “You hide behind courtesy as if it were a castle wall.”

Courtesy is a lady’s armor,” Sansa said. Her septa had always told her that.



Tyrion comparing Sansa’s wall of courtesy to the Wall of Ice,


Tyrion reclined on an elbow while Sansa sat staring at her hands. She is just as comely as the Tyrell girl. Her hair was a rich autumn auburn, her eyes a deep Tully blue. Grief had given her a haunted, vulnerable look; if anything, it had only made her more beautiful. He wanted to reach her, to break through the armor of her courtesy.

He had always had a yen to see the Titan of Braavos. Perhaps that would please Sansa. Gently, he spoke of Braavos, and met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he had walked once in the north. It made him weary. Then and now.


Breaking down the syllogism,

Courtesy is a lady’s armor. (major premise)
Sansa’s wall of sullen courtesy is as icy and unyielding as the Wall. (minor premise)
Sansa’s armor is the Wall of Ice.
Now ‘chink in the armor’ is akin to the ‘chink in the Wall of Ice’.

Edited by Minerva of Alamut, 22 July 2013 - 05:23 AM.


#2 Lehnaru

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 01:51 AM

I think Sansa will play some role in Dany's story, and it probably won't end well.


That sent a chill down my spine. Perhaps Sansa will behead Dany? /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

#3 Roadside Rose

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 01:54 AM

That sent a chill down my spine. Perhaps Sansa will behead Dany? /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />


Or the other way round. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#4 Roadside Rose

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:04 AM


Also quoting GRRM regarding prophecies and plots,

You know that the ending won't please everyone, don't you?
Of course I will disappoint some of my fans because they are making theories about who will finally take the throne: who would live, who would die… and they even imagine romantic pairings.

Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.



#5 Black Wolf Smith

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:07 AM

while possible, I just don't see it. Sansa has the Tully's looks. While she may very well be more a Stark, thus far the Blue Rose hasn't been a symbol for her.

#6 Lehnaru

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:10 AM

Or the other way round. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


Nah, I can't imagine Sansa being beheaded. Burned alive and eaten by Drogon, maybe, but beheaded? No. Who would want to cut Sansa's head off, other than Cersei? /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' /> Of course, if anything were to happen to Sansa I'd put my book in the microwave, but... Anyway, I really do love your theory about Sansa being the blue winter rose; it's very fitting. Although, I don't understand why so many people assume that Sansa and Dany will be antagonistic toward each other if and when they finally interact.

#7 Inquisitor Glokta

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:19 AM

You are aware of the fact, that Dany married this Hizdar guy?

#8 Roadside Rose

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:20 AM


Nah, I can't imagine Sansa being beheaded. Burned alive and eaten by Drogon, maybe, but beheaded? No. Who would want to cut Sansa's head off, other than Cersei? /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' /> Of course, if anything were to happen to Sansa I'd put my book in the microwave, but... Anyway, I really do love your theory about Sansa being the blue winter rose; it's very fitting. Although, I don't understand why so many people assume that Sansa and Dany will be antagonistic toward each other if and when they finally interact.

Thankyou! And no, I don't really mean Dany will behead Sansa, I just fear she would cause her some harm...because of the 'bride of fire' line. (She gave Drogo to fire). As for Sansa and Dany being antagonistic, Sansa's is growing to be a powerful character as the story progresses, so she could be perceived as a threat to Dany's plan to conquer Westeros. And she is a Stark.


#9 Roadside Rose

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:21 AM

You are aware of the fact, that Dany married this Hizdar guy?

Yes, I am.

#10 Newstar

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:27 AM

it probably won't end well



Hahahaha, isn't "it probably won't end well" basically ASOIAF in a nutshell? The only better summary would be that uttered by the TV show's Ramsay: "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

In all seriousness, I thought the blue winter rose/wall of ice image was a reference to Jon Snow. Lyanna's flower growing out of a wall of ice? A big wall of ice? You know, like the Wall? Not super subtle there, GRRM.

Whatever the blue winter rose symbolizes in relation to Dany, though, it seems like there's a positive association there: the rose "fills the air with sweetness," after all. It's hard to know, though, since the other two images in that set of three seem pretty clearly associated with death: the silver trotting towards a "darkling stream" (reminds me of the "darkling plain" from Dover Beach, associated with oblivion and existential despair in GRRM's A Song for Lya), and the corpse on the ship. I've also seen speculation that this particular set of three refers to Dany, Jon and Tyrion--the silver is Dany, the rose is Jon, and the corpse on the ship is Tyrion--which makes sense if you buy that they're going to be tied together one way or another when everything shakes out (three heads of the dragon, Targs, what have you). On the other hand, if these three images do represent Dany, Jon and Tyrion respectively, maybe that's just a hint that Jon--the rose filling the air with sweetness--is going to survive, while Dany--the silver trotting to the darkling stream--and Tyrion--the corpse on the ship--are going to die.

As for Sansa's connection to the blue winter rose, I think there is one, but I think it ties into her storyline with Petyr Baelish. Baelish = Bael the Bard? I'm not super keen on the parallel, since the Stark daughter in question had a pretty grim tale (and wound up falling in love with her abductor), but that seems a much clearer link to me than a Sansa/Dany connection.

You are aware of the fact, that Dany married this Hizdar guy?


Yeah, Dany's already two husbands in, although I think that she probably won't make it past three husbands, what with the importance of threes for Dany in light of the HotU prophecies.

Edited by Newstar, 29 June 2013 - 02:34 AM.


#11 kissdbyfire

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:31 AM

I think the blue winter rose in Dany's vision pertains to Jon.

#12 Roadside Rose

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:34 AM

while possible, I just don't see it. Sansa has the Tully's looks. While she may very well be more a Stark, thus far the Blue Rose hasn't been a symbol for her.


The blue rose hasn't been a symbol to Sansa so far, because it is not meant to be a symbol. We think the blue rose symbolizes Lyanna. But we have seen Martin use symbols that are associated with multiple people. For example Renly's peach. The peach has been used in various instances in the story, not just with Renly. The peach is just a metaphor for pleasure. Quoting GRRM himself.

In the second book Renly gives Stannis a peach. What did you want to tell us with that?
The peach represents... Well... It's pleasure. It's tasting the juices of life. Stannis is a very marshal men concerned with his duty and with that peach Renly says: Smell the roses because Stannis is always concerned with his duty and honor, in what he should be doing and he never really stops to taste the fruit. Renly wants him to taste the fruit but its lost. I wish that scene had been included in the TV series because for me that peach was important, but it wasn't possible.



#13 greensleeves

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:35 AM

I associate the blue winter roses with Stark women in general. As to the one in Dany's prophecy specifically... Well, I try not to put that much stock in the series' prophecies in general.

I think Sansa will play some role in Dany's story, and it probably won't end well.


Sansa v. Dany

The queen of ice with hair touched by fire v. the queen of fire with hair touched by ice

I could totally see that being interesting.

Edited by greensleeves, 29 June 2013 - 02:36 AM.


#14 Ygrain

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:39 AM

There are way more references to blue winter roses in connection with Lyanna (notably those of ToJ), and all of them solely and only with Lyanna, not a single one with Sansa, ever, nor is there any connection between Lyanna and Sansa. Even the whole Bael the Bard/unknown Stark daughter reflects more on R+L than anything to do with Sansa.

The blue rose hasn't been a symbol to Sansa so far, because it is not meant to be a symbol. We think the blue rose symbolizes Lyanna.

You might want to check this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...-rosetta-stone/

#15 Roadside Rose

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:40 AM


Sansa v. Dany

The queen of ice with hair touched by fire v. the queen of fire with hair touched by ice

I could totally see that being interesting.

Nice way to put it.


#16 Roadside Rose

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:42 AM

There are way more references to blue winter roses in connection with Lyanna (notably those of ToJ), and all of them solely and only with Lyanna, not a single one with Sansa, ever, nor is there any connection between Lyanna and Sansa. Even the whole Bael the Bard/unknown Stark daughter reflects more on R+L than anything to do with Sansa.

You might want to check this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...-rosetta-stone/


I have read that thread you have referenced. But this is my point of view, and it made a lot of sense to me. I am not asking everyone to agree to it.


#17 Roadside Rose

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:46 AM


As for Sansa's connection to the blue winter rose, I think there is one, but I think it ties into her storyline with Petyr Baelish. Baelish = Bael the Bard? I'm not super keen on the parallel, since the Stark daughter in question had a pretty grim tale (and wound up falling in love with her abductor), but that seems a much clearer link to me than a Sansa/Dany connection.


Baelish, and Bael the Bard....nice catch. Though I pray she never carries his progeny.



#18 kissdbyfire

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:48 AM

You're not asking people to agree with you but if you start a thread you're inviting people to put forth their own opinions on the subject.

#19 Ygrain

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:48 AM

I have read that thread you have referenced. But this is my point of view, and it made a lot of sense to me. I am not asking everyone to agree to it.

But if you're basing the connection between Sansa and blue roses solely on Sansa being the most beuatiful of House Stark, you're neglecting the possibility that Arya seems to be growing up a second Lyanna and be actually the more beautiful of the two. Which one will it be, then?
I don't think beauty itself is the key to the blue roses symbolism.

#20 Roadside Rose

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:48 AM

*double post*

Edited by Minerva of Alamut, 29 June 2013 - 02:59 AM.