The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Funko Pop! Daenerys Targaryen
Funko Pop! Daenerys Targaryen
Amazon.com
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

The Hatred of the Ironborn and Curious Historical Counterparts (which are popular)


  • Please log in to reply
60 replies to this topic

#1 Greyjoy pook

Greyjoy pook

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:03 AM

This is my first post on this board I'm pretty sure, though it's difficult for me to tell due to an admirable level of inebriation /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />. Regardless, the purpose of this topic is simple. I think very few can deny that the Ironborn are probably the least popular culture of the series, by far at that. However, what strikes me as so interesting (and frustrating at that, given I love the Ironborn) is the fact that the Ironborn roughly represent various popular cultural "underdogs" throughout history.

The Viking and Pirate connections have been made many times already, so I won't quite delve into that. However; A connection I have seen made (rarely, though it's immensely accurate) is that of the Gaelic populations of Ireland and Scotland, i.e Celtic peoples of the so called dark ages and on. The interesting part here, as i'm getting at, is all of these cultures are immensely popular in Anglo culture, yet the Ironborn more than any other culture in Westeros draw ire. Can anyone explain these inconsistencies?

(The Gaelic, far from being victims of the English, survived on raids in Wales, Scotland and England for years. In many ways, the 'Irish' were vikings before vikings truly existed.)

#2 not in the face

not in the face

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 777 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:08 AM

I love the Ironborn. I don't know why people hate them. By the way, are you talking about people in the books or on the board?

#3 Greyjoy pook

Greyjoy pook

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:10 AM

I love the Ironborn. I don't know why people hate them. By the way, are you talking about people in the books or on the board?

The boards and the general ASOIF fanbase. I perfectly understand why the general Westerosi might have disdain at best for them /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />. I'm merely curious about our own massive inconsistencies.

#4 blood of the dragoon

blood of the dragoon

    Lord Hoagie of the Breadfort

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 906 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:11 AM

Because they contribute nothing.

#5 JanAgro

JanAgro

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 103 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:17 AM

(The Gaelic, far from being victims of the English, survived on raids in Wales, Scotland and England for years. In many ways, the 'Irish' were vikings before vikings truly existed.)

Dude the last Irish raiders attacked england in the 5th century AD Its not like they were a contant problem

#6 therealbando

therealbando

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,458 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:22 AM

The Ironborn are kind of like the jocks in high-school: beating up the weaker for no reason, taking their money, drowning their faces in the toilet sea and bragging about it while they`re doing it. How can you not love them?

#7 Greyjoy pook

Greyjoy pook

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:23 AM

Because they contribute nothing.


Economically or in terms of story? If the former, can they really be faulted for being born on a series of islands with little economic viability? If the latter, I highly disagree, especially compared to the exceedingly slow-paced Dornish, the neutral and mostly useless Vale and the perpetual "tool" that is the Reach.

Dude the last Irish raiders attacked england in the 5th century AD Its not like they were a contant problem


Regardless if this is true or not, this didn't stop raids into Scotland or Wales. Scotland was ruled by Gaels for centuries due to these constant raids. This is why the Anglo-Saxon/Norman influence is so important on Scotland, as it "civilizes" them.

#8 Northern Nomad

Northern Nomad

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 463 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:36 AM

How much are the Ironborn like the Celtics? Because i think they are far more similar to the vikings then anywone else.

Edited by Northern Nomad, 29 June 2013 - 06:37 AM.


#9 Mad Monkey

Mad Monkey

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,695 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:41 AM

I highly disagree, especially compared to the exceedingly slow-paced Dornish, the neutral and mostly useless Vale and the perpetual "tool" that is the Reach.



That's true, but how many Tyrell, Arryn, and Martell POVs do we have? I can't think of any Tyrells, any Arryns, and only one Martell (Arianne -- you can maybe count Areo too if you would like). Meanwhile there are, what, four ironborn POV characters? If you find them annoying, the fact that there are so many of them would make it much worse.

For me, I don't mind the ironborn. I don't much care for them as people but they can be interesting characters. While I found Aeron somewhat dreary at times Asha and Victarion are clearly going places and Theon has won my sympathy through the sheer amount of suffering he's gone through.

#10 JanAgro

JanAgro

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 103 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:46 AM

[Do you know history at all .After Christainty arrived in ireland irish people stopped attacking Britain.By the mid ^th Century Ireland was sending monks to reeducatepeople.Irish monks rintroduced Latin and literacy into England after the Saxon invasion.AS for Scotland.irish infleunce in scotland wasnt a raid but a mass inasion that drove out the picts and replaced tghem with the scottia.BTW this happeded in the 6th cenuty AD 400 yrs beore the Normans arrived
Remember because the saxons came from an irea of germany that the romans didt rule it was Irish?native botish priests that inroduced it to them
Your also forgetting the fact that the golden age of ireland when it became known as "The isle of saints and scholars" was ended by viking invasions .It was like the two groups were teaming up.York for example was founed by viking who had beed kicked out of Dublin by the natives

Edited by JanAgro, 29 June 2013 - 06:54 AM.


#11 Greyjoy pook

Greyjoy pook

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:46 AM

How much are the Ironborn like the Celtics? Because i think they are far more similar to the vikings then anywone else.


The Celts weren't a group of peaceful victims as we often portray. Let us put it this way - while the Greeks in their golden age of philosophy and learning (and also military dominance, mind you) were fiddling around with Bronze, the Celts had expertly refined Iron (fitting, isn't it?). That's not to say the Celts were superior, but they most certainly wanted iron for very specific and brutal reasons...

Celts throughout history demonstrated an absurd amount of bravery in battle, such as the nobility of their peoples charging naked into battle simply to prove a point in antiquity. Later in the middle ages when we arrive at the Gaels, they are much tamer than previously, but still far rougher around the edges than even the Anglo-Saxons. It was not uncommon for Gaelic Chieftans to start wars over women and sheep (saltwives regarding women, if you will). To be truly accurate, the Ironborn are not simply Vikings, Gaels or Pirates - they are what historically we refer to as Norse-Gaels, who coincidentally inhabit areas of Britain dubbed "the Isles". It's no coincidence, truly.

Edited by Greyjoy pook, 29 June 2013 - 06:48 AM.


#12 Hrafntýr

Hrafntýr

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 919 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:49 AM

I love the Ironborn. I don't know why people hate them. By the way, are you talking about people in the books or on the board?

The boards and the general ASOIF fanbase. I perfectly understand why the general Westerosi might have disdain at best for them /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />. I'm merely curious about our own massive inconsistencies.

I'm not sure that your premise is true. I think that opinions vary wildly among the fanbase, just as they do with respect to individual characters. Accordingly, expect the responses to your OP to be variants on "I love the Ironborn, they're my favorite!" and "The Ironborn are useless, these are the most pointless chapters/characters in the books!"

Edited by Hrafntýr, 29 June 2013 - 07:06 AM.


#13 Myrish Swamp Thing

Myrish Swamp Thing

    Thellthword

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,525 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:49 AM

Because they contribute nothing.


/agree.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':agree:' />

#14 Greyjoy pook

Greyjoy pook

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:56 AM

That's true, but how many Tyrell, Arryn, and Martell POVs do we have? I can't think of any Tyrells, any Arryns, and only one Martell (Arianne -- you can maybe count Areo too if you would like). Meanwhile there are, what, four ironborn POV characters? If you find them annoying, the fact that there are so many of them would make it much worse.

For me, I don't mind the ironborn. I don't much care for them as people but they can be interesting characters. While I found Aeron somewhat dreary at times Asha and Victarion are clearly going places and Theon has won my sympathy through the sheer amount of suffering he's gone through.


Valid point of course, but I've seen many people act as if the Ironborn are going nowhere.

[Do you know history at all .After Christainty arrived in ireland irish people stopped attacking Britain.By the mid ^th Century Ireland was sending monks to reeducatepeople.Irish monks rintroduced Latin and literacy into England after the Saxon invasion.AS for Scotland.irish infleunce in scotland wasnt a raid but a mass inasion that drove out the picts and replaced tghem with the scottia.BTW this happeded in the 6th cenuty AD 400 yrs beore the Normans arrived


Supposing I didn't know any history, I'd not even be able to point out the fact there's a difference between Gaels, Irish, Scots, Welsh, etc. I'd also not be able to point out any specific points of Celtic history, whatever parts you may or may not believe me to be inadequately educated in. Anymore hyperbole to engage in, or are you ready to be less hostile?

Regardless of your response, Christianity and the "civilization" of the Gaels isn't my point - indeed, the invasion you speak of directly ties into what I'm saying. Far from being victims, the Gaels of "Ireland" were conquerors who imposed their wills on others at various points in history. It doesn't matter if they eventually settled down, as they still conducted these actions for generations and engaged in perpetual "petty" civil war for even more generations. Additionally, I wasn't claiming the Norman "civilizing" came at the same time. Infact, I was pointing out how massively the Normans, the same ones who came much later, radically changed Britiian, which included the Gaelic parts.

I'm not sure that your premise is true. I think that opinions vary wildly among the fanbase, just as they do with respect to individual characters. Accordingly, expect the responses to your OP to be variants on "I love the Ironborn, they're my favorite!" and "The Ironborn are useless, these are the most pointless chapters/characters in the books1"


There are certainly those who enjoy or like the Ironborn, but I'm confident we're soundly in the minority. If we're not, it must certainly be a case of a vocal opposition to them /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />.

Edited by Greyjoy pook, 29 June 2013 - 07:02 AM.


#15 JanAgro

JanAgro

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 103 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:13 AM

!)Im not being hostile i just get annoyed at people whjo thing the Anglo-Saxons?Normans "cicvilised" the gaels.The culture changed radically with the introduction of Christianity which asn't impoosed by some outside force but adopted by the people themselves.
2)The only time the irsih raided the island of GB was between the fall of the roma empire and ireland own adoption of Christainty .This period isnt that long.
3)The noramd didnt change ireland that much they brought rabbits and some names and were absorbed by the irish population.It wasnt until Henry VIII (In the 16th century) that irish culture changed(at least that when the brehon laws were outlawed)
let me finsih off by aying when Richard DEclare incaded waterford in the early 12th century Irish reaving was over by almost 6 centuries

Edited by JanAgro, 29 June 2013 - 07:15 AM.


#16 Mrs.Grumpy

Mrs.Grumpy

    i don't like you

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,385 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:22 AM

The Ironborn are kind of like the jocks in high-school: beating up the weaker for no reason, taking their money, drowning their faces in the toilet sea and bragging about it while they`re doing it. How can you not love them?


+ rape, slavery.

There's no Ironborn that I like except for Asha and Rodrik.

#17 The Great Walrus

The Great Walrus

    Aemond One-Eye's #1 fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,606 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:23 AM

I personally hate them because besides Asha and Theon, they tend to be one dimensional viking/pirate caricatures. That and when anyone faces them with a trained army they end up getting brutally defeated.

#18 TalalOfDorne

TalalOfDorne

    Prince Of Pyke And Lord Reaper Of Sunspear

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,191 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:52 AM

The Ironborn are one of my favorites. The problem about the "contribution" problem is that they never wanted to contribute. They wanted to keep their Old Way, and that was taken from them. Its only natural that they try to get back some of the traditions they lost.

And its not like the rest of Westeros hasnt done the things they did at one point.

#19 Kaerys Snow

Kaerys Snow

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 65 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:53 AM

The Ironborn are kind of like the jocks in high-school: beating up the weaker for no reason, taking their money, drowning their faces in the toilet sea and bragging about it while they`re doing it. How can you not love them?


/agree.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':agree:' />

Preying on the weak and bragging about it makes a very disdainable character. Moreover they are crybabies once confronted with people who can fight back and will do so on their own terms --> Crannogmen. Gods, I hate the Ironborn so much.

I really don't care much about the historical implications, although one has to acknowledge that there is a considerable romanticism concerning the Vikings, at least in continental Europe. Therefore I can imagine the Ironborn to have fans.

#20 Northern Nomad

Northern Nomad

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 463 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 08:00 AM

The Celts weren't a group of peaceful victims as we often portray. Let us put it this way - while the Greeks in their golden age of philosophy and learning (and also military dominance, mind you) were fiddling around with Bronze, the Celts had expertly refined Iron (fitting, isn't it?). That's not to say the Celts were superior, but they most certainly wanted iron for very specific and brutal reasons...

Celts throughout history demonstrated an absurd amount of bravery in battle, such as the nobility of their peoples charging naked into battle simply to prove a point in antiquity. Later in the middle ages when we arrive at the Gaels, they are much tamer than previously, but still far rougher around the edges than even the Anglo-Saxons. It was not uncommon for Gaelic Chieftans to start wars over women and sheep (saltwives regarding women, if you will). To be truly accurate, the Ironborn are not simply Vikings, Gaels or Pirates - they are what historically we refer to as Norse-Gaels, who coincidentally inhabit areas of Britain dubbed "the Isles". It's no coincidence, truly.


Well Ironborn do use longboats which is very viking like, and so is the shieldwall tactic which they also use. And what you said about going to war naked is not something we ever see Ironborn do. Nagga the sea dragon is also pretty much lifted directly from norse mythology.

While i agree that the celts were savage, and so are the ironborn that does not mean that they relate to each other.