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If L+R does = J, who will drop the bomb?


Lady Flandrensis

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@Joe Pine Manderly, really? Ned didn't even tell his wife of fourteen years because he was so scared for Jon's safety

I'm thinking he's old enough to recall the events of Harrenhal and Robert's Rebellion, the quickest way south from the north is via white harbour, (Did Ned return with Jon and the wet nurse by ship? )

I'd also expect that he'd be one of the few Northern Lords left that could verify who Howland Reed is and that he's telling the truth.

A secret is one thing, but a little guy popping up from the neck saying 'I'm Howland Reed and Jon Snow is a secret Targaryen heir' would need some back up.

We know Manderly was trusted by Ned and Catelyn, I don't think it's too far out there had Ned told him about Jon.

We know Manderly can keep a secret and can plot with the best of them. So would it be outlandish for him to back up Howland Reed in the reveal?

Are people even trying to give a logical explanation? I remember a post claiming that Lyanna's tomb held a her and Rhaegar's marriage contract :lmao:

I think what I've said is logical and reasonable.

It's not logical for Howland Reed to appear without anyone else there who can say, 'yes, this is Lord Reed and yes he's telling the truth'

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Actually the KG at the ToJ prove Jon's a legitimate son of R+L as they wouldn't stay behind to protect a bastard when Viserys and Rhaella are on Dragonstone.

The KG serve the Royal Family so them being there doesnt mean anything, to be honest Rhaegar could of just had them there to protect the entrance to his rape-dungeon. The KG being there doesnt prove he is legitimate.

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Except Jon has no claim to the Iron Throne, the Baratheons took the throne by force, making the Targaryen claim null and void. Jon's parantage has more to do with the prophecies and the Others than it does to being king.

:o I'm shocked someone's thinking logically for once

I agree Jon's revelation will have more impact for readers rather than the characters

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Maybe no one....maybe it is GRRMs way of avoiding the biggest fantasy cliche ever and the secret Targ heir never rises up to King, he just stays an arrogant self entitled idiot slain by his own men.

I was fearing the exact same thing.

What if it never becomes clear?What if George decides this piece of info is not even essential to the plotline?

I have no idea.

I am just hoping, whatever he decides to write, I just want it to turn out well-written.

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The KG serve the Royal Family so them being there doesnt mean anything, to be honest Rhaegar could of just had them there to protect the entrance to his rape-dungeon. The KG being there doesnt prove he is legitimate.

Yes it does. They wouldn't have stayed there protecting a Targ bastard when they could have been protecting Viserys (who would've been the rightful heir if Jon is a bastard) and Rhaella (who was pregnant with Dany).

If you want to know more then I advise you to read the first page of the R+L=J thread, it has all the answers.

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As far as I know:

-If Lyanna was raped, Rhaegar is a monster

-If they married, both are monster

-If Rhaegar saw the future and knew he needed a First-Men heir, only Lyanna is a naive monster

.

So, poor Jon.

I think Bran will learn the truth first, but this is HR who will tell Jon.

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@Joe Pine why would Ned feel the need to tell anyone? It's not like he saw the future in a crystal ball and knew he was going to die!

It doesn't matter if there's no logic behind Jon's revelation because it only effects the readers and we'll see it because Howland might have a pov or something like that.

Jon doesn't need to believe it and there doesn't need to be tons of evidence. The Jon Snow parentage reveal is for the readers not characters

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Yes it does. They wouldn't have stayed there protecting a Targ bastard when they could have been protecting Viserys (who would've been the rightful heir if Jon is a bastard) and Rhaella (who was pregnant with Dany).

If you want to know more then I advise you to read the first page of the R+L=J thread, it has all the answers.

I believe R+L=J, the idea of Rhaegar marrying Lyanna: Elia would eat her alive but ok whatever suits them

What I don't believe however is that it would make any impact to the story. No one's going to believe Jon (hell I don't even think he'll believe it) and the Targaryens no longer have a claim to the throne so it doesn't matter

They won it by force and now Dany and Aegon will have to get it back through force.

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I believe R+L=J, the idea of Rhaegar marrying Lyanna: Elia would eat her alive but ok whatever suits them

What I don't believe however is that it would make any impact to the story. No one's going to believe Jon (hell I don't even think he'll believe it) and the Targaryens no longer have a claim to the throne so it doesn't matter

They won it by force and now Dany and Aegon will have to get it back through force.

Well it would make an impact on the story as Aegon is a Blackfyre so people will think afterwards that there are no more of Rhaegar's children, then Jon is revealed to be one, and he would also for fill a number of prophecies as well. And if Howland was to reveal it to everyone they'd probably believe him as he was the only survivor along with Ned to come back from the ToJ, where Lyanna was being kept.

As to Jon, I think Bran will find out either from Jojen, who was told by Howland, or he sees it though the the Weirwoods and then once him and Bloodraven have helped resurrect Jon, he'll then tell Jon somehow. And he doesn't have to go for the Iron Throne, he's already the heir to Robb...

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@Joe Pine why would Ned feel the need to tell anyone? It's not like he saw the future in a crystal ball and knew he was going to die!

It doesn't matter if there's no logic behind Jon's revelation because it only effects the readers and we'll see it because Howland might have a pov or something like that.

Jon doesn't need to believe it and there doesn't need to be tons of evidence. The Jon Snow parentage reveal is for readers not characters

:) so it'll only 'effect the readers' - sorry, but why have this secret, reveal it to the readers and for it not to drive the story and change Jon's relationship to the other principle characters, it changes the dynamic of Dany and Aegon/Young Griff's claims. It also makes him a legitimate nephew of Ned.

I believe Mr Martin has said there won't be any new POV's and even that's incorrect, what purpose would a sole chapter of POV from Howland Reed serve if he didn't reveal Jon's lineage and reveal that to an audience of characters that would give it credit, such as the northern lords assembled at Winterfell?

That reveal can be still be served through other POV's present in the north.

For something that has that effect on the story, then the reveal and 'who drops the bomb' as this thread is titled, would in my view be rather important and would be dropped after the battle at Winterfell.

There is still the issue of Reed turning up to a group of northern lords and for them to say ' who the heck are you and why should we believe you?'

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There is a theory that old crown of Kings in the North, with some sort of confirmation that the two of them were married, and that child Lyanna carries is legitimate, is buried with Lyanna. Something is certainly hiding in those crypts.

Any proof to this? Every theory, i see you complain about no textual proof, just theories and people hoping it's true.

And also, i truly have no clue if theirs info on this, so i'm honestly curious.

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As to Jon, I think Bran will find out either from Jojen, who was told by Howland, or he sees it though the the Weirwoods and then once him and Bloodraven have helped resurrect Jon, he'll then tell Jon somehow. And he doesn't have to go for the Iron Throne, he's already the heir to Robb...

Why would Howland will reveal anything to anyone when Ned himself didn't tell anybody? The only way we (as a reader) would know about jon's mother is through bran and he may not find the info relevant enough to tell Jon at all.

BTW Robb's will is invalid because it was set under the false pretense that bran and rickon are dead.

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Why would Howland will reveal anything to anyone when Ned himself didn't tell anybody? The only way we (as a reader) would know about jon's mother is through bran and he may not find the info relative enough to tell Jon at all.

BTW Robb's will is invalid because it was set under the false pretense that bran and rickon are dead.

Robb's will is not invalid, but Jon will refuse the job if he knows either Bran or Rickon is alive anyway. Howland Reed might reveal the truth if it is necessary, as for getting help from Dany and her disgusting beast.
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Bran probably already knows but he's been made to forget. He saw his father in the crypt and he was sad, something to do with Jon.

If Bran, when he's allowed apparently, can forward that to Jon then he'll know, too. Waking dragons from stone.

Maybe Jon's dream is related to something else, but maybe not.

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Any proof to this? Every theory, i see you complain about no textual proof, just theories and people hoping it's true.

And also, i truly have no clue if theirs info on this, so i'm honestly curious.

I complain that much? It must be due to overgrowing number of bad theories

As for this one, there's a theory that crown of Kings on the North lies with Lyanna in her tomb. The crown was given to Targaryens when King who Knelt submitted the North to Targaren rule. We know Ned saw some crown at Lyanna's bed. As for marriage, there's a three Kingsguard at ToJ that foreshadow whom they're guarding. Also, possible child would need to be recognized by father, so it's not unbelievable that Rhaegar did it before riding to Trident. There's also foreshadowing in ADWD that something is hidden in those crypts, and since Lyanna is the first woman that was ever laid down there, it's pretty symbolic that Queen Mother would be buried there.

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I complain that much? It must be due to overgrowing number of bad theories

As for this one, there's a theory that crown of Kings on the North lies with Lyanna in her tomb. The crown was given to Targaryens when King who Knelt submitted the North to Targaren rule. We know Ned saw some crown at Lyanna's bed. As for marriage, there's a three Kingsguard at ToJ that foreshadow whom they're guarding. Also, possible child would need to be recognized by father, so it's not unbelievable that Rhaegar did it before riding to Trident. There's also foreshadowing in ADWD that something is hidden in those crypts, and since Lyanna is the first woman that was ever laid down there, it's pretty symbolic that Queen Mother would be buried there.

Or maybe i read too many theories on here? lol

And wow, i must have missed the crown thing, didn't know that.

Could the kingsguard be there, because they believe all the other heirs are either exiled or dead, and not because Lyanna/Rhaegar were married?

Don't know if the timeline is possible.

But thanks for the info!

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