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I gotta bad feeling about Sansa in TWOW


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#1 The Black Hawk

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:59 PM

I feel like she is gonna go through hell like she might get best up more, raped by Harry or Littilefinger, get pregant and die or she might finally realize she loves whoever and they die. GRRM even said that one of her chapters was going to be controvisal like she gonna get raped I pray to god no I would cry because of that I might actally not want to read it or puke like every mention is rape makes me disgusted.

#2 Albertine

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:07 AM

So far, Sansa has suffered mostly from grief and humiliation. Both very difficult, and applied with a hammer, but most of the other main characters have suffered grief, humiliation, AND some special, extra trauma.

I, too, suspect Sansa is due for even more pain.

#3 Hodor knows

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:08 AM

Don't worry about Sansa, soon enough She'll have people running and hiding like a scene out of The Birds.

#4 Lord Flashheart

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:20 AM

I got a bad feeling on this one.

Edit: No, really. A bad feeling.

Edited by Lord Flashheart, 30 June 2013 - 11:35 AM.


#5 Addam of Hull

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:38 AM

Sadly, I think you're right; Sansa is most likely going to be married again this book and it won't be to someone who is decent. Either Harry the Heir or LIttlefinger will take her maidenhood - though she's definitely marrying Harry. The latter almost seems more likely to me. The only other scenario I could see being that controversial is if she kills Sweetrobin.

#6 Newstar

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:56 AM

I got a bad feeling on this one.


Obligatory.

Topic: I could see Sansa losing her virginity in TWOW--the sexual references in her last AFFC POV seemed to be ramping up quite a bit--but I doubt it will be rape. Unpleasant, probably, but not rape...although I suppose if she sleeps with Littlefinger supposedly consensually, he's manipulated her to the point where whatever consent she does give would be pretty meaningless in the context of their relationship. The same thing with Harry the Heir (I personally doubt they'll get married, but that doesn't rule out them sleeping together); Harry could try to get Sansa to sleep with him, and she could go along with it on the belief that Littlefinger had instructed her to "charm" him and she figured she'd have to bed him anyway. Even if it isn't rape, I have no doubt that any sex scenes involving Sansa will be as creepy and gross as pretty much every other sex scene in the books to date.

I think the argument about Sansa getting raped is that she's had so many near misses with rape that sooner or later her luck is going to run out (much like many readers anticipate that despite his many ridiculous escapes from the jaws of death, Tyrion's luck will eventually run out as well). I don't know that I buy that, though. I mean, heck, she's managed to avoid it for this long.

I've been kicking around the theory that Sansa has (hopefully consensual) sex with someone--Littlefinger, Harry the Heir, Bachelor Number 3, who knows?--and gets immediately knocked up. Tully women do seem to be rather fertile. Assuming she lives long enough to carry the child to term (and chooses to do so, since I suppose she could abort it as Lysa did hers), it could make her life pretty interesting over the rest of the series, especially since unlike, say, Cersei, she'd never be able to pass off the kid as her husband's child.

I think that assuming GRRM goes this route, there's a possibility that Littlefinger may prove to be the babydaddy; it would be totally messed up, but totally messed up in the kind of way GRRM goes for. Think about it. He tells Sansa that he might have had a daughter like her with Catelyn, and that he's not terribly subtly trying to make Sansa his Catelyn substitute. We know that Littlefinger wanted to marry Catelyn (and presumably have children by her) and actually did knock up Lysa (thinking she was Catelyn). Sansa is playing "mother" to Sweetrobin, which makes Littlefinger the "father" to Sweetrobin (and Littlefinger might actually be Sweetrobin's father if some fans are correct). It's pseudo-incestuous--Littlefinger knocking up his "daughter" Craster-style--and creepy on many levels (not least of which is that Littlefinger would be doing what he wanted to do by marrying Catelyn, an act which he tells Sansa could have resulted in a daughter like her), but it fits, in a sick way. There's also the connection between Petyr "Baelish" and Bael the Bard, who abducted and knocked up a Stark daughter as per the story. So yeah, I could see it, assuming Sansa does have sex in TWOW.

GRRM even said that one of her chapters was going to be controvisal like she gonna get raped I pray to god no I would cry because of that I might actally not want to read it or puke like every mention is rape makes me disgusted.


Hold your horses. There was a quote in an interview with Ran which he later clarified that "some quarters of the fandom might"--that's might--find a Sansa TWOW chapter Ran had already read controversial. It's anyone's guess what that might mean. For all we know, the quarters in the fandom Ran is referencing might be Sansa haters who think she's an incompetent moron. In that case, the "controversial" thing might be Sansa doing something exceptionally clever or awesome. So it might not mean that the "controversial" chapter means anything bad for Sansa. We just don't know.

Edited by Newstar, 30 June 2013 - 01:38 AM.


#7 Ser Pounce FTW

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:00 AM

Sadly, I think you're right; Sansa is most likely going to be married again this book and it won't be to someone who is decent. Either Harry the Heir or LIttlefinger will take her maidenhood - though she's definitely marrying Harry. The latter almost seems more likely to me. The only other scenario I could see being that controversial is if she kills Sweetrobin.


I doubt very seriously Sansa will get married in the next book. She is already married and whether some like that idea or not, it is a fact. For her to remarry, she will need to have her first marriage annulled, something that is unusual, or become a widow, which is far more likely. The controversial situation is most likely her choosing to do something questionnable or morally bad. I really don't see her getting raped but she might "give" it up although I find even that unlikely based on how her arc's been developing.

#8 Direwolf of the Starks

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:01 AM

Yeah it suck but I believe she is in for alot more misery. GRRM even said in an interview he wants to kill off alot more characters

#9 Ser Pounce FTW

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:05 AM

Yeah it suck but I believe she is in for alot more misery. GRRM even said in an interview he wants to kill off alot more characters


I really think Sansa stands a good chance of surviving. If she does die, it won't be until very late in the series.

#10 Newstar

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:08 AM

Yeah it suck but I believe she is in for alot more misery. GRRM even said in an interview he wants to kill off alot more characters


Fair enough, but there are hundreds of characters who aren't Sansa, and dozens of major characters--POV characters, even--who aren't Sansa.

I agree that if she lives, she's in for "a lot more misery," but that's pretty much true of all characters at this point. Either they're going to die, or they're going to wish they had. /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

That Sansa is going to suffer a lot more is pretty much a given as far as I'm concerned. The only question is what form her suffering is going to take.

I really think Sansa stands a good chance of surviving. If she does die, it won't be until very late in the series.


Plus, Starks only die or "die" in odd-numbered books. It is known.

Edited by Newstar, 30 June 2013 - 02:19 AM.


#11 Castellan

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:14 AM

I feel like she is gonna go through hell like she might get best up more, raped by Harry or Littilefinger, get pregant and die or she might finally realize she loves whoever and they die. GRRM even said that one of her chapters was going to be controvisal like she gonna get raped I pray to god no I would cry because of that I might actally not want to read it or puke like every mention is rape makes me disgusted.

Maybe the controversy is she will cease to be 'nice' - maybe she will 'accidentally' kill Sweetrobin for example, or marry Harry the Heir and then stick a knife in him.

I think zombie-like brainwashed sex with Littlefinger seems more likely than rape.

#12 Woman of War

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:40 AM

So far Sansa's ordeals when it comes to sexual abuse are the PG-rated version of female suffering.
She did not get raped when she had a knife at her throat, she saw a boner but did not feel it, she still has all her teeth and has not been raped by dogs. Martin is not shy of giving us examples of violence against women of the most awful kind yet Sansa got explicitely spared so far.
And maybe indeed she will never get raped but have consensual sex she will seriously regret later, a rather likely plot in her case with a lot of RL parallels, unwanted pregnancy and all.. Equally likey would be a scenario where she is alone on the road for some reason and has to get by and to survive by all means. In her case this may not be the knife but her body, the misery of many common women in times of war.

P.s. What makes me wonder again and again is that the sexual threats are seen as the worst that happened to Sansa. The worst is seeing your father beheaded, the most horrible catastrophe for a child.

Edited by Woman of War, 30 June 2013 - 03:14 AM.


#13 Mladen

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:53 AM

Not every woman has to be raped so her suffering would be great. Look at Catelyn who gave the most horrific POV chapter after which half of us needed a break. Look at Arya, Brienne or many other female characters. The fact is that there are different ways to hurt a woman, beside raping her. And that's apparently some of you forget.

I have to say, I don't have the bad feeling about Sansa. With all foreshadowing, miseries she survived and strength she gained, with all oportunities GRRM had. I doubt we'll ever see her being sexually abused. Also, I think that after everything she survived, a ray of sunshine would be nice for her, and here her storyline is headed, we can say she is going to have some happiness down the road.

#14 RKOpanther

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:58 AM

I think the controversial situation with Sansa may be the proverbial last straw and make way for a more ruthless Sansa. I would love to see Sansa kill Harry the heir and somehow making it look like Littlefinger did it at which point the Vale lords execute Littlefinger and Sansa gains the Vale.

#15 Newstar

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:05 AM

Not every woman has to be raped so her suffering would be great. Look at Catelyn who gave the most horrific POV chapter after which half of us needed a break. Look at Arya, Brienne or many other female characters. The fact is that there are different ways to hurt a woman, beside raping her. And that's apparently some of you forget.


Sure, but there are several female characters in-series who have been raped, as well as female characters who were Sansa's age (13) when they were raped: Dany, Jeyne Poole, and Tysha (three characters, I might add, who share connections of one kind or another to Sansa: Dany, a character who seems to parallel Sansa, Sansa's best friend, and Tyrion's other wife). It's not crazy to speculate as to whether the same thing will happen to her, especially since, unlike, say, Catelyn or Arya, she's had several near misses with being raped already (the riot, Marillion, etc.). The constant threat of rape in Sansa's arc is front and centre through the books in a way it hasn't been in, say, Catelyn's arc or Arya's, so I think pointing out all the ways a female character can suffer by using them as examples is kind of missing the point.

I have to say, I don't have the bad feeling about Sansa. With all foreshadowing, miseries she survived and strength she gained, with all oportunities GRRM had. I doubt we'll ever see her being sexually abused. Also, I think that after everything she survived, a ray of sunshine would be nice for her, and here her storyline is headed, we can say she is going to have some happiness down the road.


I think Ramsay--albeit in the TV show--put it best: "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

And let's be real, here. If Sansa ever did experience a real moment of happiness, she'd be dead within three chapters. The more unutterably miserable she is, the better her survival prospects...which is why her good mood and high spirits in her last AFFC POV chapter should raise some red flags.

Also, while she hasn't been raped (yet), in between what Joffrey did to her, her wedding night horror with Tyrion, and what Littlefinger is doing to her, I think it would be hard to argue that Sansa hasn't been sexually abused.

Edited by Newstar, 30 June 2013 - 03:22 AM.


#16 Mladen

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:13 AM

Sure, but there are several female characters in-series who are raped, as well as female characters who were Sansa's age (13) when they were raped: Dany, Jeyne Poole, and Tysha. It's not crazy to speculate as to whether the same thing will happen to her.


But the argument here is that every woman needs to be rape so her suffering would have enough depth. And that's just sick in my book. I mean, yes, there are characters that were, and those that weren't raped, but does it have to be some universal ASOIAF torture for women? No, as I said, Cat is tortured by loss of her children... I mean, if GRRM didn't do it with all possible chances he had, with Joffrey, Tyrion, even Sandor, and LF, why would he do it now? Yes, it's not crazy to speculate, but if the only argument is that rape is the only suffering woman can endure, then there's a big problem

I think Ramsay--albeit in the TV show--put it best: "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

Also, while she hasn't been raped (yet), in between what Joffrey did to her, her wedding night horror with Tyrion, and what Littlefinger is doing to her, I think it would be hard to argue that Sansa hasn't been sexually abused.


Wasn't that GRRM who told about happy endings? I mean, she was in some sort sexually abused, and I doubt it will be easy for her to overcome the trauma that happened to her, but she already suffered enough even without rape. Even if the series ends today, she wouldn't have happy ending. After deaths of her family, all her torments, you think that any ending would be happy for her? I mean, this isn't Harry Potter type of fantasy where everything will fit into place and all shall be fine...

#17 Castellan

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:22 AM

I don't think the OP said he feared Sansa would get raped and that would be worse than anything that's happened to other female characters. He just thought it was on the cards for her because she has been dodging the bullet for a while and because of something GRRM said in an interview. There seem to be a lot of readers who value Sansa's innocence and don't want to see her suffer or 'despoiled'. Fair enough.

I personally like her passive resistance style survival and think she may end up coming through OK.

#18 SerCalius

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:46 AM

I think she will come into power at some point and be a major player in the game of thrones, and that is what the controversial thing GRRm spoke of since so many people dislike her.

#19 Aerys Blackfyre

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 05:30 AM

she is going to meet her sister again... problem: she won't recognize her, being in disguise to kill a certain Alayne Stone

#20 Karmarni

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:10 AM

I've been kicking around the theory that Sansa has (hopefully consensual) sex with someone--Littlefinger, Harry the Heir, Bachelor Number 3, who knows?--and gets immediately knocked up. Tully women do seem to be rather fertile. Assuming she lives long enough to carry the child to term (and chooses to do so, since I suppose she could abort it as Lysa did hers), it could make her life pretty interesting over the rest of the series, especially since unlike, say, Cersei, she'd never be able to pass off the kid as her husband's child.


This. I've said before that I think Sansa is playing the current generation's version of Lyanna Stark. I'm hoping that this version will reverse the outcome, Sansa will live, be protected by her 'knights' and the child will be healing for her. The foreshadowing in the books seems to suggest to me that she will be a mother. I feel pretty certain that her wanting to be loved for herself isn't in the cards (yet?), but that sex, not love, is.

I do hope that she learns to apply Cersei and Littlefinger's lessons in her own way, not to play the game of thrones, but to earn her freedom. I think her best bet is to use the weapon between her legs. And how could she not? She is isolated with the pimp daddy.