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Septon Chayle is the Hooded Man in WF (Theon I Spoilers)


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Theon sees ghosts.

At one point he says: Leave Winterfel to me and my ghosts.

And at another point: I am a ghost.

And he shows the hooded man his hand without a problem, and only several moments later he is scared to show his hand.

Theon is not afraid of death.He informs us of that too.

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Theon is sensitive to the supernatural and something of a clear channel for psychic/ telepathic communication. ( I assume , like so many other dreams, this one could be being influenced by Bloodraven)

Not that I think it is likely in the case of Theon's dream, but as far as "prompted dreams" go, we also have to remember that the glass candles are burning again (and probably since the time Daenery's dragon's hatched). Quaithe uses them to come to Daenerys in a dream, and who know how many things Marwyn has done with his candle. But, like I say, there is no in-text indicator that Marwyn is taking an interest in Theon... Brynden Rivers and the children are more likely meddlers.

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I'm not sure if this has been raised before, the thread has gotten too long to read through in its entirety, but Theon sees Chayle in his dream of the feast for the dead at Winterfell in aCoK, a dream which I think is supposed to be prophetic, since the dead people at that feast include several that Theon could not have known for certain were dead and several people whom he never met.

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell...

...Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller’s wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran’s life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures halfseen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

To my mind, this is confirmation that Chayle is dead.

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I'm not sure if this has been raised before, the thread has gotten too long to read through in its entirety, but Theon sees Chayle in his dream of the feast for the dead at Winterfell in aCoK, a dream which I think is supposed to be prophetic, since the dead people at that feast include several that Theon could not have known for certain were dead and several people whom he never met.

To my mind, this is confirmation that Chayle is dead.

I agree, and yes, we were just discussing the dream on the last page , if you're interested.

Posts #276 - #279

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I'm not sure if this has been raised before, the thread has gotten too long to read through in its entirety, but Theon sees Chayle in his dream of the feast for the dead at Winterfell in aCoK, a dream which I think is supposed to be prophetic, since the dead people at that feast include several that Theon could not have known for certain were dead and several people whom he never met.

To my mind, this is confirmation that Chayle is dead.

Chayle is deader than a dead thing.Monty Python couldn't make him any deader.

The only thing that could make him more dead is if they cast Sean Bean in the role of Septon Chayle.

But I'm entirely sure Bean would refuse the role on the basis that Chayle is dead.

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I agree, and yes, we were just discussing the dream on the last page , if you're interested.

Posts #276 - #279

Good points raised there, particularly the distinction between Theon's dream and Bran's list. Theon's dream doesn't include Harwin, or any other living people, but does include people that he didn't know were dead (eg Robb) and people whom he didn't know at all (eg Lyanna, who is shown to Theon in the state she was in at her death, a detail he could not possibly have known before that).

That dream is supernatural, it is not subject to misinformation. No living people, not even those presumed dead like Benjen, are mentioned. Nobody could seriously think that Chayle would be the only exception to that. Either there would be a number of other living people present - proving that the dream is a product of Theon's misconceptions rather than a magical dream - or there would be none.

It was a cool theory dudes, but there's no way Chayle is alive.

Personally, and I must stress I don't know how valid/possible this is, but I'd love the HM to be Maester Luwin. As best I can recall, we never actually saw Osha kill him and I don't think Wex's information included confirmation of his death, not unlike the Hound. He also knows Theon well, far better than any other HM candidates I've seen raised, and would hate Theon for his treachery which would explain the way he addresses him and how he seems pleased by Theon's suffering. Again, not sure if this has been brought up previously but I'd love it to be true

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Also, Luwin would probably have known about Theon's possible relation to the Miller's boys, explaining the reference to him as kinslayer even though he didn't actually kill Bran and Rickon. Makes more sense, given that Bran and Rickon are not in fact related to Theon. The more I think about it the more I'm convincing myself. Would love to hear someone else's thoughts on it


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Personally, and I must stress I don't know how valid/possible this is, but I'd love the HM to be Maester Luwin. As best I can recall, we never actually saw Osha kill him and I don't think Wex's information included confirmation of his death, not unlike the Hound. He also knows Theon well, far better than any other HM candidates I've seen raised, and would hate Theon for his treachery which would explain the way he addresses him and how he seems pleased by Theon's suffering. Again, not sure if this has been brought up previously but I'd love it to be true

I would love this to be true. If we are considering Chayle as HM, I suppose we must consider the possibility of Luwin, too. Luwin was one of my favorite minor characters in the previous books. I really liked when he played Scully to Osha's Mulder with Bran.

My bet is that Chayle and Luwin are both dead - My money for the HM is still Robett Glover. But these are really interesting theories.

I suppose this is a slippery slope, though. Next we will see posts that the HM is Syrio Forel or Old Nan! Those will be fun to discuss, too.

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This is a great thread and I've really enjoyed reading it.



I feel that the OP has put forward some really convincing arguments for Chayle but the arguments that I buy are the ones that suggest it is somebody who knows Winterfell well, knows Theon and whom Theon believes to be dead. I don't necessarily believe right now that this means it has to be Chayle but I'd be happy to be proved wrong.



When I first read this chapter, I remembered immediately thinking of the Tom o' Sevens reveal in AFFC and the Freys dying shortly afterwards, I guessed that the BwB had infiltrated here too, I actually immediately thought of the northman with them, Harwin. That was my initial gut feeling and it felt like a bit of a eureka moment that I have had a few of reading these books (some have been wrong though!). However reading these threads kind of backs up my gut feeling, Theon thinks he's dead, he's northern, and there it's not deus ex machina.


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Yes, Bran and co. took three swords.

A Clash of Kings, Ch.5 Bran I

So we know which three blades are missing as well.

Now here is where it gets interesting, from ADWD:

A Dance with Dragons, Ch.42 The Turncloak

From ACOK, we know that swords were taken from Rickard, Brandon, and Ned.

From ADWD, we know that swords are missing from Rickard, Brandon, and a king whose name Theon can't remember.

(Since they only reach Ned's tomb at the end of the chapter and the focus is on the discussion they are having at that point, Theon doesn't point out the missing sword from Ned's tomb, but I think it pretty clear that that sword is missing as well.)

This means that someone has been down there, and has taken a sword that was closer to the entrance, since the sword is missing from one of the first statues they come across. We only have one sword unaccounted for, but it is possible others are missing that aren't mentioned in ADWD.

Hopefully this helps.

I was wondering myself, since we know that Bran and co. took swords, but then I thought that it might be useful to see if they were the same three swords that Theon notes are missing.

I believe four swords were taken, not three. Bran took his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera took Lord Rickard's sword, and Osha took Eddard's sword. This is all confirmed in ACOK Ch.5, but in ASOS Ch.10 we see that Hodor has an old sword spotted with rust.

A Storm of Swords, Ch.10 Bran I

The stableboy had forgotten about his sword, but now he remembered. "Hodor!" he burped. He went for his blade. They had three tomb swords taken from the crypts of Winterfell where Bran and his brother Rickon had hidden from Theon Greyjoy's ironmen. Bran claimed his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his grandfather Lord Rickard. Hodor's Blade was much older, a huge heavy piece of iron, dull from centuries of neglect and well spotted with rust.

In ADWD Ch.42 Lady Dustin and Theon see that a King is missing his sword, 'Streaks of rust remained to show where it had been.' So we can now assign names to the four missing swords.

Lord Eddard Stark - Osha

Ned's Brother Brandon - Bran

Lord Rickard - Meera

Unknown King with a Rusty sword - Hodor

The interesting part is that Lady Dustin and Theon admit that Brandon and Rickard are missing swords which Lady Dustin may take as a hint that Bran and Rickon are still alive. I don't believe anyone else has been down to steal swords since Lady Dustin's guards had to work for a half hour just to open the doors to the crypt. Three of the swords taken were the newest swords available. The sword Hodor took was probably claimed for it's size, which is better suited for him despite being rusty.

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To my mind, this is confirmation that Chayle is dead.

As pointed out in the OP (or maybe elsewhere in the thread; I can't remember anymore), the 'dining with the dead' quote is well before the HM encounter, yet Chayle is absent from Theon's musings of the dead after the HM encounter.

The idea being that Theon thought he'd killed Chayle when he pushed him down the well, but realized he hadn't, in fact, after the HM encounter.

It's a tenuous connection, and it'd be a really subtle clue if it's a clue at all. But it's one of the clues that led me down the path of posting this theory for all to hack and slash at.

Robett is probably the most logical connection, IMO, either assuming "timeline hijinks" are in play, in that Davos has already returned with Rickon, and that Robett is fulfilling his promise to join Stannis' forces, or instead that Robett learned that his wife had already declared House Glover for Stannis after treating with Davos, so left Whiteharbor prior to Davos' return to lend Stannis a hand from the inside. The HM's dagger (if it's the "Wex dagger") is probably the lowest hanging foreshadowing device one could really lend any credence. But you never know with GRRM.

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That’s where the pot cracks for me…

So, Theon, who was ~19 when the books started (born in ~279AL, AGOT starts in ~298AL), reportedly had fooled around with the miller’s wife which, according to the theory, resulted in boys that were roughly 8 and 5, meaning Theon hooked up with the miller’s wife when he was 10-11 years old. Then, not only is the HM Davos, but Davos recognizes Theon having never seen/met him before, and also knows Theon’s private backstory, and that’s the justification for him calling Theon “Kinslayer.”

Everything’s on the table, I suppose, but I have a really hard time with pretty much all of that, personally...

In any case, it does seem the readership collective is equally as divided today as it was two years ago, based on all the suspects put forth and the rebuttals to the various premises.

In oversimplified summary, if the HM is someone that Theon think is dead, then it’s apparently irrelevant whether Theon thinks of them as dead after the HM sighting. If the HM is someone that knows Theon didn’t kill Bran and Rickon, calling him “Theon Kinslayer” still makes perfect sense to many readers. If the HM is someone who is nowhere near WF and has no foreshadowing for going there, that’s not an obstacle to showing up out of the blue, having scaled the walls or found some alternate way in despite the largely impregnable nature of WF. If the HM is someone who may have never met Theon in person, they recognize him nonetheless. And, if Theon has Multiple Personality Disorder, for which there is no text precedent in ASOIAF, that is also not an obstacle for many readers.

Based on how divided the readership is, I’m sure we could add Dagmer to the conversation too, since Theon asserts that he is ironborn as a means of “justifying” allegedly killing Bran and Rickon.

If Theon Durden is on the table, based on Theon’s fragile mental state, surely it’s equally plausible for the HM to be a woman. After all, the premise of Theon Durden is that he’s lost his mind. To that point, what if the HM is purely a figment of Theon’s imagination, taking the credibility of Theon’s entire POV through the mud?

How about a Ned Stark sighting?

Patchface, anyone?

There’s an argument for nearly everything, I suppose, and I expect to continue to see a wide variety of opinions on this subject. But it would be nice to agree on some “filters” to apply.

· Is it someone living?

· Is it a man?

· Is it someone other than Theon?

· Is it someone holding a dagger?

I think yes.

· Is it someone that recognizes Theon?

· Is it someone that Theon recognizes?

The person recognizes Theon, or they wouldn’t’ say his name twice, but there is no proof whether Theon recognizes the man or not (they make eye contact; that’s about all we have to go on).

· Is it someone that believes Theon is a kinslayer?

I think so, or the HM wouldn’t call him Theon Kinslayer.

· Is it someone around which Theon felt comfortable revealing that he didn’t kill the Stark boys?

No.

· Is it someone disgusted by Theon’s decision to overtake WF and kill some Starks along the way?

“False is all you were.”

· Is it someone who has been in WF for a while?

· Is it someone who has recently arrived to WF?

One of those two things has to be true.

· Is it a major character?

· Is it a POV?

Not necessarily, but maybe.

· Is it a “random northman” and we’ll never get resolution?

I don’t believe so, but we’ll see.

For me, Chayle passes all the basic filters, if you buy that it’s possible the well and the godswood pool connect, and that he lived, and those filters would also “rule out” Theon Durden, Robett, Davos, Harwin and others, for a variety of reasons.

But it’s clear that not everyone agrees, which is what makes it an open mystery.

And I do think the Davos angle would be a great play for the overall story, providing a POV inside WF (especially if Asha/Theon do not actually head there after the battle of ice).

But… Davos and Robett have the same obstacles to overcome. I think you have to write off “Theon Kinslayer” as a name that simply “stuck” out of common use, and not take it to literally mean that the HM believes Theon killed the Stark boys. You have to “concoct” a backstory for why Davos would recognize Theon, such as skulking around WF for long enough to learn who’s who. And you have to believe that Davos or Robett would be able to figure out a stealthy way into WF, having never done so before in their lives.

This is a very fine summation of the HM mystery.

I might add another wrinkle. We can not be sure that only one of the possible HM candidate is around Winterfell. Many of them could be there. I think there are good narrative reasons to pull characters to WF (a Northern version of the Meereenese Knot if you will). While a number of characters are gathering, only one could be the HM. If characters met before the scene, then information could have been shared. For example if Chayle survived, he could have told any of the other candidates about Theon and the Miller's boy--especially the younger one that was likely Theon's son).

It seems to me that WF under Bolton control is a very porous place. I think Northerners can come and go pretty freely and be undetected. To do this they would need a guide who knows the secrets of Winterfell the way that Varys knows the secrets of Kings Landing. Merely living at WF is not a guarantee that you would know the secrets. After all, Bran knew the true layout of the castle only because of his climbing skills. Ned might know, but he's dead. Same with Luwin. There are only two possible candidates who might know the secrets: Benjen and Chayle.

When it comes to knowing the secret ways in and out of WF, one can't rule Benjen out. And while he could be there, I tend to think that he's still North of the Wall and will show up in another aspect of the story. Still, if he was South of the Wall, it is possible that he could be in Winterfell helping the Northern conspiracy. But using Benjen as a WF tunnel guide for others seems like a waste.

OTOH, Chayle is a minor character. As the long-time keeper of the WF library, he would have had access to any written record of the secrets. He would know the layout; the waterways and their connections--both hot and cold; tunnels, passageways hidden entrances to the castle; the crypts and the caves below. When he was pushed into the well, he would have know what fed the well, knowledge of the waterways combined with being a strong swimmer explains why his body was never found.

The OP has convinced me that Chayle is still alive, but I can't say if he is the HM.

If Chayle is alive, he would be working with the loyal Stark men in and out of Winterfell. He could be with the Umbers or with the hidden Manderly army led by Robett Glover. His knowledge of Winterfell--and what really happened during Theon's brief reign, the Bolton sack of WF and the secrets of the castle's layout would be very useful. He could have shared enough information to fill in the gaps that argue against many of the other possible HM candidates (Robett, Davos, Harwin, Blackfish, Raynald, etc.).

So, I think the case for the HM identity is pretty wide open and that a good case can be made for most theories. It will be fun to speculate until we get our hands on TWOW.

Cheers

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This is a very fine summation of the HM mystery.

I might add another wrinkle. We can not be sure that only one of the possible HM candidate is around Winterfell. Many of them could be there. I think there are good narrative reasons to pull characters to WF (a Northern version of the Meereenese Knot if you will). While a number of characters are gathering, only one could be the HM. If characters met before the scene, then information could have been shared. For example if Chayle survived, he could have told any of the other candidates about Theon and the Miller's boy--especially the younger one that was likely Theon's son).

It seems to me that WF under Bolton control is a very porous place. I think Northerners can come and go pretty freely and be undetected. To do this they would need a guide who knows the secrets of Winterfell the way that Varys knows the secrets of Kings Landing. Merely living at WF is not a guarantee that you would know the secrets. After all, Bran knew the true layout of the castle only because of his climbing skills. Ned might know, but he's dead. Same with Luwin. There are only two possible candidates who might know the secrets: Benjen and Chayle.

When it comes to knowing the secret ways in and out of WF, one can't rule Benjen out. And while he could be there, I tend to think that he's still North of the Wall and will show up in another aspect of the story. Still, if he was South of the Wall, it is possible that he could be in Winterfell helping the Northern conspiracy. But using Benjen as a WF tunnel guide for others seems like a waste.

OTOH, Chayle is a minor character. As the long-time keeper of the WF library, he would have had access to any written record of the secrets. He would know the layout; the waterways and their connections--both hot and cold; tunnels, passageways hidden entrances to the castle; the crypts and the caves below. When he was pushed into the well, he would have know what fed the well, knowledge of the waterways combined with being a strong swimmer explains why his body was never found.

The OP has convinced me that Chayle is still alive, but I can't say if he is the HM.

If Chayle is alive, he would be working with the loyal Stark men in and out of Winterfell. He could be with the Umbers or with the hidden Manderly army led by Robett Glover. His knowledge of Winterfell--and what really happened during Theon's brief reign, the Bolton sack of WF and the secrets of the castle's layout would be very useful. He could have shared enough information to fill in the gaps that argue against many of the other possible HM candidates (Robett, Davos, Harwin, Blackfish, Raynald, etc.).

So, I think the case for the HM identity is pretty wide open and that a good case can be made for most theories. It will be fun to speculate until we get our hands on TWOW.

Cheers

Although I like Benjen for the HM, I agree there could be other likely candidates from the standpoint of having a previous connection to WF.. notably, Harwin or Hal Mollen.. but one can find objections to them as well.(How did they get in ?)

Like The Great Elk, I think that both Luwin (sadly) and Chayle are dead.. but if Martin was going to keep one of them alive , my money would be on Luwin, who was involved with and gave thought to what was going on politically with the Starks and who is a much more important character than Chayle (whose only purpose in the text has been to demonstrate the symbolic nature of Jojen's greendreams).

There is no evidence whatsoever that the miller's boys were Theon's sons ( even the youngest). How did this become "likely" ? We can imagine a possibility for the youngest, because Theon slept with the milller's wife. ...But, we don't know when he first slept with her, or how often, still,he might have been old enough to father the youngest one ... if you think the miller's wife would be all that attracted to a 15 yr. old boy, or that Theon had his seduction skills perfected by that age. (Remember the best part of a year would have been taken up by her pregnancy ) She doesn't seem particularly young and susceptible from his memories of her. ...It seems much more "likely" to me, that he'd be more practiced , more attractive, and have more opportunity to be riding off on his own in the last year or two before Robb marched south. Which would make it not at all "likely" that even the younger boy was his...And there's no reason (in the text) to assume that Septon Chayle would have known or suspected , even if by some chance the younger boy was Theon's.

All of this seems a great effort to support the idea that the HM's use of "kinslayer" must be factual. The most sensible , obvious explanation is that whoever the HM is, he uses "kinslayer" , because in his mind, the Starks treated Theon more like kin than like a hostage.

The text tells us that WF under Bolton control is anything BUT porous. Two quotes from "A Ghost in Winterfell"..

Winterfell’s great main gates were closed and barred, and so choked with ice and snow that the portcullis would need to be chipped free before it could be raised. Much the same was true of the Hunter’s Gate, though there at least ice was not a problem, since the gate had seen recent use. The Kingsroad Gate had not, and ice had frozen those drawbridge chains rock hard. Which left the Battlements Gate, a small arched postern in the inner wall. Only half a gate, in truth, it had a drawbridge that spanned the frozen moat but no corresponding gateway through the outer wall, offering access to the outer ramparts but not the world beyond.

What could Abel want of him? The man was just a singer, a pander with a lute and a false smile. He wants to know how I took the castle, but not to make a song of it. The answer came to him. He wants to know how we got in so he can get out. Lord Bolton had Winterfell sewn up tight as a babe’s swaddling clothes. No one could come or go without his leave. He wants to flee, him and his washerwoman.

I can't stress too much how wrong I think your post is about any secret passages. First of all, it would completely defeat the purpose of having one, if you were going to leave plans of the castle lying about in the library. I've seen documentaries , read articles that point out just how secret they were in our medieval world. Their main purpose was to provide an escape route for the ruler in dire circumstances. In each generation ,there may only have been two or three people who even knew they existed.

OK , go to Westeros. If there ever was such a careless thing as a floor plan, what would the chances be that it still survived after 8000 yrs? ( or whatever the actual length of Westerosi history..) ... If a ruler and his heir happened to die at the same time, or the ruler and his most trusted advisor.. knowledge of the existence of a passage would be lost... Or if there was simply no call to use it for a number of generations, the knowledge could be lost. The knowledge has been lost , or Ned would have told Cat would have told Robb would have told Bran or Luwin..

If Chayle had survived and knew, or if Luwin had known of a secret passage , don't you think they would have helped Bran and Rickon escape after Theon took the castle ? How loyal was that? Bran and Rickon could have been killed at any moment. ...No. Neither Luwin ,nor the less trusted Chayle could possibly have known about any passage. (I say "less trusted" because , do we see Ned , Cat or Robb confiding in Chayle or consulting with him on the political decisions they have to make ..as they do with Luwin ? No. Do we even see Chayle present to help guide Bran at the Harvest gathering.. as we see Luwin and Ser Rodrik ? No.)

Yes, Chayle is a minor character. Very minor. Wouldn't it just scream Deus Ex Machina! if he suddenly popped up having knowledge meant only for Starks , that Starks themselves had forgotten for goodness knows how long. ( Having survived by means GRRM has not hinted at, and has even contradicted by placing him in Theon's Feast of the Dead dream )

Benjen being there would not be a "waste" if he has been told about a secret passage by the CoTF ( they are the one source that would remember the passage if it had been forgotten for a long time). Benjen's been missing where the CoTF, as well as the Others, have been active , and the CoTF seem to be in the business of helping Starks... And he's certainly not wasted if the tunnel can only be found and opened by a Stark ( a parallel to the Black Gate and the NW) .. and not wasted if it took a Stark leader to bring all the disparate factions of Norterners together.

OT- Nothing to do with the HM, but it's really fairly likely from the text, that Theon has fathered a bastard - but on the daughter of the captain of the Myraham (out of Oldtown). Theon uses the daughter sexually, all during his voyage to Pyke, and when she says her father will hit her and call her names when Theon's gone...

“Fathers are like that,” he admitted as he pinned the folds with a silver clasp. “Tell him he should be pleased. As many times as I’ve fucked you, you’re likely with child. It’s not every man who has the honor of raising a king’s bastard. (ACoK)

In ASoS the captain takes the news of Balon's death to Robb, and happens to mention..

"My last port of call afore Seagard, that was Lordsport on Pyke. The ironmen kept me there more’n half a year, they did. King Balon’s command. ... "

In AFfC , in Oldtown, Sam notices...

At the Weeping Dock, he watched two acolytes help an old man into a boat for the short voyage to the Bloody Isle. A young mother climbed in after him, a babe not much older than Gilly’s squalling in her arms.

I find it hard to believe that Martin would give such evocative names to the dock and the isle if we weren't going to find out more about them, and considering that childbirth is referred to as the Bloody Bed.. the isle might have something to do with babies that are unwanted for any reason.. bastards , cripples etc. .. or , a refuge for cast off women with embarrassing pregnancies... ( sort of the equivalent of the Quiet Isle) .. anyway, whatever the case turns out to be, the baby would be about the right age, if the captain's daughter had conceived.

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^Not to mention, Sam recalls Theon in that chapter, which is a hint dropped by George. I think he does this trick occasionally.



It made him wonder if even Horn Hill was truly safe. The Tarly lands lay inland amidst thickly wooded foothills, a hundred leagues northeast of Oldtown and a long way from any coast. They should be well beyond the reach of ironmen and longships, even with his lord father off fighting in the riverlands and the castle lightly held. The Young Wolf had no doubt thought the same was true of Winterfell until the night that Theon Turncloak scaled his walls. Sam could not bear the thought that he might have brought Gilly and her babe all this long way to keep them out of harm, only to abandon them in the midst of war.


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Paper Waver.. I had forgotten about that bit of name-dropping by George and I think you're right about the way he uses the trick . And I don't think he only does it with names, and thoughts of other characters.



For example.. I think we can all accept that the warhorns and drums heard at WF were in response to the signal of the first warhorn blast... a signal for someone to act, or a signal that someone was ready to act.



Following that , in the "Theon" chapter , we see ..



1. Manderly becomes blatantly provocative to the Freys.. ( Roose sending the men out may even be the desired result )


2. Abel and the spearwives decide they must act ..


3. And in this same chapter, Theon remembers ...



He and Robb had fought many a heroic battle on these steps, slashing at one another with wooden swords. Good training, that; it brought home how hard it was to fight your way up a spiral stair against determined opposition. Ser Rodrik liked to say that one good man could hold a hundred, fighting down.

.

... yes, but first you have to know they're coming up that stairwell , and if they have some inside men at the top, keeping you from establishing a defensive position.. if you're distracted by a missing bride, two factions of men wanting to get at each other, booby traps outside your gate ... added to the fact that most people in the castle don't even know where the stairwell is located... that changes everything.


Big Walder knows, but would have no reason (that we know of) to be suspicious. Lady Barbrey and her men know. She tells Theon to hold his tongue about their conversation , and the easiest way for Theon to do that , is not to mention the trip at all. ( Walder could play spoiler , though , and that makes me nervous for Barbrey )


Here, the clue is not Robb or Sir Rodrik , but the action itself. I think Theon remembers this now because something similar will soon come into play. Why didn't Theon remember when climbing other stairs , in other chapters ...to the battlements , the little used staircase by the mews.. the stairs in the crypts "spiraling down" ? ... (To insert the memory at the last example would have been too obvious.)


ETA: Dragon Roast.. in case I seemed too harsh ( Chayle is just completely unlikely, IMO) ;) .. I do think it's possible the younger boy could be Theon's , but if so , just another bitter blow for him (and nothing to do with the HM's epithet).. He's been castrated , so will never have a son born of a marriage, extinguishing Balon's male line of descent...Then he may find out he had a son whom he killed , or allowed to be killed .. Only some other by-blow turning up could begin to alleviate the horror and grief he would feel.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I like this theory about Chayle being alive. To me, who the HM is boils down to what he says "Theon Turncloak, Theon Kinslayer."



The miller boys argument doesn't make sense to me because I thought that they were orphans given to the Miller and his wife because they couldn't concieve children of their own. I thought that Luwin advised Bran of this as he sat the Lords chair after Robb had called the banners and ridden south, making the kinslayer comment impossible in regards to those boys.



Whoever the HM is would have to know what Theon did after taking Winterfell, and not know that Bran and Rickon are still alive - which points to Chayle as a possibilty, and maybe Harwin. This would seem to rule out Glover and the other Northmen gathered to see Theon's hand with Lady Dustin, and the even more absurd notion that it is Davos, who I'm not even sure knows who Theon is.



The only other possibilty is that whoever calls him kinslayer does so in reference to his turning his cloak on ROBB which allowed the north to fall and subsequently the Red Wedding.


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Doesn't the HM appear shortly after Lady Dustin has spoken of how she would never let Ned's bones be buried at Winterfell? Hallis Mollen (also HM) was last seen travelling north with Ned's remains to have them buried at WF. The Ironborn taking Moat Cailin would've forced him to travel through the crannogmens lands, and he would still have had time to get to WF and hide out between the Sack of WF and the Boltons returning there. He would know WF well, and if you consider the theory of the Reed-Manderly conspiracy, and like most people assume they already have Rickon ready to take his seat back somewhere, it's a short leap to assume he would be mocking Theon as a kinslayer and still leave him to his fate. He was also close with Theon and Robb, and would be a face that Theon would feel comfortable enough with to show his hand like that. He would however, after Reek, be a more distant memory then Septon Chayle which would make it more likely that Theon would feel comfortable with him as a familiar face, but not afraid of reprisal as he wouldn't remember the name or relation, just the feeling of a comfort.

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Doesn't the HM appear shortly after Lady Dustin has spoken of how she would never let Ned's bones be buried at Winterfell? Hallis Mollen (also HM) was last seen travelling north with Ned's remains to have them buried at WF. The Ironborn taking Moat Cailin would've forced him to travel through the crannogmens lands, and he would still have had time to get to WF and hide out between the Sack of WF and the Boltons returning there. He would know WF well, and if you consider the theory of the Reed-Manderly conspiracy, and like most people assume they already have Rickon ready to take his seat back somewhere, it's a short leap to assume he would be mocking Theon as a kinslayer and still leave him to his fate. He was also close with Theon and Robb, and would be a face that Theon would feel comfortable enough with to show his hand like that. He would however, after Reek, be a more distant memory then Septon Chayle which would make it more likely that Theon would feel comfortable with him as a familiar face, but not afraid of reprisal as he wouldn't remember the name or relation, just the feeling of a comfort.

Possible. But I don't like Hallis Mollen as the HM - because he is a bit dim, and doesn't have the self-awareness that the Hooded Man seems to exhibit. Catelyn always says that Hal can only repeat the obvious. He's a follower, not a leader. Davos also seems possible, arriving to inform Manderly of progress - but the main argument against him, if I remember well enough, is that he's never seen Theon Greyjoy and, given what we know of his personality, would not get all intimate and judgemental (or even ironically amused) with Theon. The Hooded Man has too much attitude to be Hal Mollen, and the wrong sort of attitude to be Davos. Or so it seems to me.

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Possible. But I don't like Hallis Mollen as the HM - because he is a bit dim, and doesn't have the self-awareness that the Hooded Man seems to exhibit. Catelyn always says that Hal can only repeat the obvious. He's a follower, not a leader. Davos also seems possible, arriving to inform Manderly of progress - but the main argument against him, if I remember well enough, is that he's never seen Theon Greyjoy and, given what we know of his personality, would not get all intimate and judgemental (or even ironically amused) with Theon. The Hooded Man has too much attitude to be Hal Mollen, and the wrong sort of attitude to be Davos. Or so it seems to me.

And Reek has too little attitude to be Theon Greyjoy. If you haven't realised yet, people change. And repeating the obvious is not the same as being dim.

And c'mon. Is there a much better argument then claiming that Hallis Mollen (HM) = (HM) Hooded Man?

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