Rickon Stark destined to die?

[houseHB]

The Red Wedding had to happen because Robb's death pushed the plot forward. Now on to Rickon's potential death with Rickon alive and returning to the North he blocks Jon from being king in the North because he is Ned Stark's true born son and therefore would come before Jon would. This has me thinking that Rickon's story will not end in a good way, but he will end up dead because with Rickon dead and Bran stuck in a cave no question's will arise with Jon's legitamicy as the rightful King in the North. Especially because of Robb's will

[Fat Mac]

I don't see why Jon needs to be King in the North. If Rickon returns, I doubt Robb's will will matter much, seeing how Rickon would then have a better claim.

[Mladen]

Robb most likely legitimized Jon, and since Jon is older than Rickon, legitimized he would come first. So, Rickon isn't some great obstacle for Jon to become KitN.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Robb most likely legitimized Jon, and since Jon is older than Rickon, legitimized he would come first. So, Rickon isn't some great obstacle for Jon to become KitN.

Robb will is invalid because was it based upon the false pretense that bran and rickon are dead. No one will rally behind a bastard while Ned's true born sons is alive.

[Mladen]

Robb will is invalid because was it based upon the false pretense that bran and rickon are dead. No one will rally behind a bastard while Ned's true born sons is alive.

That depends if Robb based his will upon false pretense or he just named Jon as his heir. Since we don't know the content we can't assume either. Also, Rickon is what 5,6. Which Lord would support him, and not legitimized Jon?

[N/A]

If this ever happens i swear martin will not escape me. i handled the Neds death handled poorly but handled non the less i went into depression after the red wedding and he mocked me with making Cat barely half a charterer yet i soldiered on but this is too much no more

the whole damn thing about Rickon dying is mostly based on a joke (i don't mean this OP)

Jon doesn't fit as king in the north he already refused the lordship twice why would he change his mind now ?

and if R+L=J what's the point

I'd rather the others take planetos than this happening

[jons nissa]

i'm on the fence about rickon's future. i definitely believe we'll see him in book 6 and that he'll be a wild child. from there, it can go two ways: he is the last of ned's male children and can easily be the next lord of winterfell. he's very young to be crowned king in the north so i don't really see that happening. that seems to be the reason he was created in the first place. however, grrm is tricksy and he's named rickon's direwolf shaggy dog. so this could either be support for rickon be a wild, shaggy beast or it could foreshadow rickon being a shaggydog n this story and just a trick for us to focus on.

if i'm honest, i know very little of rickon and having him suddenly appear on the back of a unicorn with a huge wild direwolf sounds amazing but having him win the prize of the north feels both hollow and eerily just. i have no idea how to feel about it! we'll see how he's presented in book 6.

as for jon's role, hard to say. before the stabbing, i'd say jon would have to be dragged from the wall, kicking and screaming the whole way. when he comes to from such a brutal act, all bets are off. he'll be far darker and may not want to remain at the wall and turn his attention to keeping the others from heading south. or he may learn of robb's will and decide he does want winterfell. it's a toss up however even if jon does become lord of winterfell, i don't see him growing old in that role so perhaps it will all fall on rickon anyway.

[David Selig]

That depends if Robb based his will upon false pretense or he just named Jon as his heir. Since we don't know the content we can't assume either. Also, Rickon is what 5,6. Which Lord would support him, and not legitimized Jon?

Most of them. They prefer a kid on the throne so they can have more power. This especially applies to the most powerful Lords who want to be the power behind the throne. Plus Rickon is trueborn and not an oathbreaker.

Also the question whether the older legitimized bastards are before the younger trueborn sons doesn't have a clear answer according to Martin.

[SnowyJon]

Jon doesn't fit as king in the north he already refused the lordship twice why would he change his mind now ?

and if R+L=J what's the point

If it's coming from Robb he might take more time to consider it. Not saying he will do it, just that he will think it over. I imagine Rickon will emerge as Lord/King of Winterfell and that's how it's going to stay.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

That depends if Robb based his will upon false pretense or he just named Jon as his heir. Since we don't know the content we can't assume either. Also, Rickon is what 5,6. Which Lord would support him, and not legitimized Jon?

It is pretty clear that Robb believed Bran and Rickon are dead. He had a big chat with cat about the future of heir winterfel and how sansa, as a lannister, can't not take winterfel. That is why he disinherited her.

As for who would support Rickon? Menderly for starters.

[Mladen]

Most of them. They prefer a kid on the throne so they can have more power. This especially applies to the most powerful Lords who want to be the power behind the throne. Plus Rickon is trueborn and not an oathbreaker.

Also the question whether the older legitimized bastards are before the younger trueborn sons doesn't have a clear answer according to Martin.

And then we would have chaos, because all of them would fight to be his legal guardian and Regent in his name. Jon is the best option they have, and since most of them most likely know about the Robb's will, I can see all of them supporting him. All in all, Rickon is kid, and Jon is legitimized. Most logical conclusion is that Jon rules as Rickon's regent for the time being.

It is pretty clear that Robb believed Bran and Rickon are dead. He had a big chat with cat about the future of heir of winterfel and how sansa, as a lannister can't not take winterfel. That is why he disinherited her.

As for who would support Rickon? Menderly for starters.

Yes, but we don't know how the will put the things? Is Jon named only as heir, or is it stated that due to loss of his trueborn brothers, he is naming Jon as heir. There;s a big difference there.

[jons nissa]

No one will rally behind a bastard while Ned's true born sons is alive.

jon snow is known far and wild as ned stark's bastard raised by ned himself. he's in a very different situation from your average bastard child.

Rickon is what 5,6. Which Lord would support him, and not legitimized Jon?

this. sort of. i think that if faced with the choice between an experienced adult commander vs a 6 year old wild boy, many of the bannermen will side with jon. but there will always be a faction supporting rickon. i just think with war looming and the very real threat of the others arriving, more will prefer jon at the helm.

[JLE]

Jon himself would refuse any title to Winterfell if either Bran or Rickon were known to be living, anyway.

The general principle that has been set over centuries is that one can "legitimize" a bastard - this may require royal approval (Roose Bolton apparently needed royal approval to legitimize Ramsay), or it may at least require a lack of royal disapproval.

But, even if a bastard is legitimized and granted the right of inheritance, the *tradition* at least seems to be to rank them after all trueborn descendants (as is known from the Great Bastards of Aegon IV - he inserted them into the line of succession but after all his trueborn descendants: it is also hinted that if Roose Bolton sires a legitimate son by Fat Walda Frey, that son would be recognised by all as his heir above Ramsay, so Ramsay would have to kill any legitimate son of Roose - and Roose accepts that he will do this.)

It might of course be theoretically plausible that ranking an older bastard ahead of younger trueborn descendants could be legally possible, but against tradition.

This implies the following:

(1) If Robb "legitimized" his brother in his will, this can only work if he EITHER is accepted as independent King in the North by all those who would accept rule from Winterfell, OR if an overlord were to be recognised that would also recognise Robb's wishes even if not recognising his kingship. Fortunately, Stannis at least appears to fulfil the latter precondition, having offered himself to declare Jon legitimate: Jon would therefore be recognised as "legitimised" by any northman who supports either an independent kingdom (under the Starks), or Stannis for King of Westeros.

(2) Jon would be declared as Robb's heir because Robb believed Bran and Rickon dead. If they are NOT dead, then they would have the right to contest Jon's being named as Robb's principal heir: and Jon being Jon, would presumably step aside, and accept Bran or Rickon as lord, in return for them at least accepting Jon as legitimised, with the rights of a full brother rather than a bastard half brother. The chances seem high to me, that Jon would act this way even if Robb had tried to insert him in the line of succession ahead of Bran and Rickon.

(3) In either case, the position would conflict with his Night Watch vows, so a way would have to be found to free him from vows that are meant to last until death. Dying and coming back from the dead would work, of course, but only if the comeback works "properly" as none of the previous ones shown in the series really have.

[jons nissa]

Most of them. They prefer a kid on the throne so they can have more power. This especially applies to the most powerful Lords who want to be the power behind the throne.

i think this would definitely be the situation for most of the lords during peaceful times but i don't see the north opting to have a struggle for power over a who will be regent rather than having a clear leader to organize the fight against the others.

[Fat Mac]

I don't see a way where Jon would willingly take the Lordship of Kingship from Rickon if he knows he's alive. I can see ruling as regent, but that's it. I don't even see him taking it from Sansa.

[David Selig]

this. sort of. i think that if faced with the choice between an experienced adult commander vs a 6 year old wild boy, many of the bannermen will side with jon. but there will always be a faction supporting rickon. i just think with war looming and the very real threat of the others arriving, more will prefer jon at the helm.

You are really underestimating the selfishness and ambition of the bannermen. They would prefer a child because this gives them more power.

i think this would definitely be the situation for most of the lords during peaceful times but i don't see the north opting to have a struggle for power over a who will be regent rather than having a clear leader to organize the fight against the others.

They are involved in a power struggle right now even though they've been warned about the Others,

[N/A]

That depends if Robb based his will upon false pretense or he just named Jon as his heir. Since we don't know the content we can't assume either. Also, Rickon is what 5,6. Which Lord would support him, and not legitimized Jon?

they will obey or he will eat them :drunk:

[Mad Monkey]

He has so little screen time that I'm not even sure he himself would notice if he died. Ba dum tssss!

[Mladen]

I don't see a way where Jon would willingly take the Lordship of Kingship from Rickon if he knows he's alive. I can see ruling as regent, but that's it. I don't even see him taking it from Sansa.

At the end it all comes down to this. Jon will take position out of necessity, not ambition.

[Dany Girl]

I don't see Jon accepting WF as long as Rickon is alive, but I would see him rallying the troops for Rickon and serving as a general for him. Jon is too loyal to assert his claim over his true born brother regardless of the will. Plus, he doesn't seem to want to leave the Wall, so a lot would need to change for that to happen.