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How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)


Bridgeburners

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Hey, I just typed freehand, LOL!!

Ha, more credit to ya :bowdown:

Searchable text has its uses though, so I ended up with both versions somehow.

So, the night before trial by combat is after the testimony and Cersei is only referencing a conversation that happened afterward, and unless someone in universe tells us more, we really have no idea how their original meeting a deal came to be, whose idea it was, and or anything along the line of threats made or not made. I was always wondering on the tears and then, of course, Tywin, LOL

Yeah, this was just Shae trying to collect her dues, it seems, and Cersei being Cersei. It does sound like Cersei made the arrangements though "promises Cersei might have made." Go figure

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Haha, I'm pretty good, I opened to the page where Cersei is informed about the girl's body and I'm thinking the thoughts about what transpired should follow.

Here we go, I'm a pretty good typist, let's see if I can do the passage without google's help.

Shae, her name was Shae. They had last spoken the night before the dwarf's trial by combat, after that smiling Dornish snake offered to champion him. Shae had been asking about some jewels that Tryion had given her, and certain promises Cersei might have made, a manse in the city and a knight to marry her. The queen made it plain that the whore would have nothing of her until she told them where Sansa Stark had gone. "You were her maid. Do you expect me to believe that you knew nothing of her plans?' she had said. Shae left in tears.

So, the night before trial by combat is after the testimony and Cersei is only referencing a conversation that happened afterward, and unless someone in universe tells us more, we really have no idea how their original meeting a deal came to be, whose idea it was, and or anything along the line of threats made or not made. I was always wondering on the tears and then, of course, Tywin, LOL

That leans heavily against threat of torture, etc. being needed and toward Shae coming to them looking for a payoff for her testimony, elsewise Cersei wouldn't be remembering "promises" she had made.....

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That leans heavily against threat of torture, etc. being needed and toward Shae coming to them looking for a payoff for her testimony, elsewise Cersei wouldn't be remembering "promises" she had made.....

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that their weren't also threats, that to me is the issue. Carrot and stick, and well......Cersei is not sutle, it is possible she did both and offered Shae a choice.

Ha, more credit to ya :bowdown:

Searchable text has its uses though, so I ended up with both versions somehow.

Yeah, this was just Shae trying to collect her dues, it seems, and Cersei being Cersei. It does sound like Cersei made the arrangements though "promises Cersei might have made." Go figure

Yup, just like she tried to do with Bronn, she just needed him dead to go back on her promises. What an idiot, LOL

If I ever go totally modern, I'll be dangerous. HA

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I don't think Book!Shae necessarily needed threats. She was just opportunistic and looking for payment. Though knowing Cersei I'd put money on it being a mixture, too.

I agree. It was never necessary for things to escalate to threats because Book Shae made the offer in return for manse/jewels back and marriage. Certainly, Cersei is more than capable of making and carrying out threats, and would have, but this passage, especially the timing of it...and "promises" tells me, it never got to that point.

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The thing that bugs me is that we are not given definite information on the way everything went down with Cersei, Shae, and yes, Twyin. Shae leaves Cersei in tears, but is that an act and she's on her way to report to Twyin (if so, how long has she been doing that because keep in mind, even BookShae would always refuse Tyrion's ideas of her leaving the capital), or is she on her way to try and work on Tywin for that which Cersei is denying her. With Cersei and her mindset, she's always trying to clean things up that she does in her own mind and the circumstances on these thoughts are rife with reasons for Cersei to self edit and clean up all she herself has done. Dad is dead, Shae, in the bed, Tyrion and paranoia, and of course, in Cersei's mind, regardless of what she did or didn't do to get Shae to testify........Cersei thinks it was a necessity anyway, and she's not in the right time and place to really be honest with herself, spare Shae too many thoughts, or reflect on what she herself has done.




This is all just leads me to two thoughts.



1. I think too much.



2. GRRM does hold onto secrets and information entirely too long himself. I suspect we don't have all the answers because GRRM himself is still deciding on the Varys factor in this giant equation, as recent interviews about Tyrion's double homicide seem to indicate.



Okay, third thought: Give it up, GRRM, or at least, some of it. Get writing and get the next book out!!! Insert the temper tantrum emoticon here, my server won't let me get to it, LOL

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Ok, thank you for enlightening me , I obviously remembered it wrongly.

But nothing in it sounds to me as if Shae had been bribed or coerced into accusing Sansa and Tyrion since then Cersei would for sure have tried to seriously question her about Sansa' s whereabouts.

Will we ever get the details? Does Martin see it as important for the impact the killing of Shae had on Tyrion?

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Ok, thank you for enlightening me , I obviously remembered it wrongly.

But nothing in it sounds to me as if Shae had been bribed or coerced into accusing Sansa and Tyrion since then Cersei would for sure have tried to seriously question her about Sansa' s whereabouts.

Will we ever get the details? Does Martin see it as important for the impact the killing of Shae had on Tyrion?

This may be the sixth time I said this, and it has yet to go addressed - Tyrion killing Shae was wrong no matter what the situation was with Shae. Even in the worst case scenario - that Shae was simply using him for money and status, then went to Cersei of her own accord and offered to testify just for more wealth, without any coercion whatsoever - Tyrion was not justified at all in killing her. It was not self defence, it was not a deterrent for future false testimonies by other whores, it was not a means of protecting potential future victims of Shae, it was just vengeance. It was simply an execution meant to make Tyrion feel personally better. There is not a lick of justification for Tyrion killing her, no matter how much in the wrong she was.

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This may be the sixth time I said this, and it has yet to go addressed - Tyrion killing Shae was wrong no matter what the situation was with Shae. Even in the worst case scenario - that Shae was simply using him for money and status, then went to Cersei of her own accord and offered to testify just for more wealth, without any coercion whatsoever - Tyrion was not justified at all in killing her. It was not self defence, it was not a deterrent for future false testimonies by other whores, it was not a means of protecting potential future victims of Shae, it was just vengeance. It was simply an execution meant to make Tyrion feel personally better. There is not a lick of justification for Tyrion killing her, no matter how much in the wrong she was.

exactly

shae did not deserve to be brutally murdered in the way that she was. she just didn't. and the way book!tyrion did it came across as slightly sadistic to me tbh

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exactly

shae did not deserve to be brutally murdered in the way that she was. she just didn't. and the way book!tyrion did it came across as slightly sadistic to me tbh

I do totally agree, I just brought all the info because I had read it recently and noticed that some in here seemed confused on the details. I would just like the answers to all of this someday, LOL Especially on whether or not Shae went to Tywin to work on him since Cersei was still holding out on her or did she go because she was already somehow in cahoots with Tywin. I just want to know, to know, ya know, not to look for a way to make it 'cleaner' that Tyrion killed her. Ironically, I think irregardless of all the exact details, in the books Tyrion seems to agree that killing her was not right. With the show giving the ridiculously thin self defense ploy, I wonder how much Tyrion will be allowed to acknowledge this besides the initial "I'm sorry" after the deed.

I just want to know for knowledge sake. I guess I have a nosy streak, LOL I also want to know about Varys, did he just know, or did he ever have anything to do with anything?

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This may be the sixth time I said this, and it has yet to go addressed - Tyrion killing Shae was wrong no matter what the situation was with Shae. Even in the worst case scenario - that Shae was simply using him for money and status, then went to Cersei of her own accord and offered to testify just for more wealth, without any coercion whatsoever - Tyrion was not justified at all in killing her. It was not self defence, it was not a deterrent for future false testimonies by other whores, it was not a means of protecting potential future victims of Shae, it was just vengeance. It was simply an execution meant to make Tyrion feel personally better. There is not a lick of justification for Tyrion killing her, no matter how much in the wrong she was.

Sigh, and I have said about one hundred times that it was wrong.

But will Martin ever tell us the story behind and will it have a different impact to come on Tyrion if there is a backstory of coercion? Does GRRM intend at all to give more information about Shae's motives or is the story complete as stepstone into, at least for a time, darker emotional paths for Tyrion?

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If you really think about it, it can be argued that it isn't. He could have walked out and leave it at that. However, the very fact that the writers made her grab a knife shows that they meant for the audience to think that.

All that it shows is that people see what they want to see. If they choose to see rape, they see rape. If they choose to see whitewashing...

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All that it shows is that people see what they want to see. If they choose to see rape, they see rape. If they choose to see whitewashing...

Nobody chose to see it as rape : it was rape, even if they hadn't written it that way. They screwed up, but that doesn't make it any less rape. Same for Tyrion's whitewashing : when you remove a character's bad deeds (killing the singer, groping Sansa, killing Shae without any help), that's whitewashing.

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