Did Tywin have Elia murdered (and raped)?

[Sansa_Stark]

There's no point for Tywin to lie about it. There's not a conspiracy behind every little thing you know.

and yet Martin had Oberyn bring up the possibility because he probably wanted us to wonder.

[Lummel]

In context Tywin is trying to keep Tyrion on side and he probably didn't give a direct order to Lorch and Clegane to do what they did - but then he would not have needed to.

Dorne slighted Tywin. Elia was married to Rhaegar while Tywin was rebuffed and humiliated when he offered his Cersei as a bride for Rhaegar. Tywin's position as a late comer to the rebellion is important. He either secures the Red Keep and spares Aegon and Rhaenys, in which case they can be made King and Queen with a regency council to rule the kingdom or he kills them overthrowing the dragon kings and establishing regime x to replace them. If it is to be regime x then the royal family have to die to secure the throne from the risk of future rebellion and there is a logic to being as savage as possible as a warning to dissenters to tow the line. If there is no mercy to the royal family then lesser families will be quite aware of the risk of opposition. This a 'sharp lesson' on a national scale.

Lorch we see in ACOK is a killer, but cold, dispassionate and bored. His portrayal runs counter to Tywin's account and why should Tywin be honest to Tyrion when, as per usual, he is trying to persuade him to do something? And Gregor...Is Tywin going to chose to send a man on a crucial mission if he has no idea how he is going to behave? "There's a tool for every task and a task for every tool". Tywin knew what he wanted to achieve. He doesn't have to give Gregor a precise order to rape Elia and smash Aegon's head open. By choosing Gregor for this task Tywin will know that the deaths of Elia and Aegon will be brutal and sufficiently exemplary that all Westeros will learn the necessary lesson and draw the correct conclusion.

[mrunderhill]

In GoT he talked about HH as seat of kings when he heard it was given to Slynt but in SoS dismiss HH as ruin and it isn't big deal that it goes to some minor lord from Vale.

His speech about helping your enemy after their defeat - Reynes, Tarbecks, Starks, etc.

When he said to Tyrion that he would never order rape(and he didn't say noble woman) - Tysha, even daughter of Bracken was raped by Clegane and Tywin didn't care.

When he heard about Sandor appointment to KG he is upset because Sandor is just their "dog" but Gregor is prominent member of Tywin's war council.

And I'm sure there are many other examples.

What exactly was the quote about HarrenhaL?

Yes you helpy your enemies when they surrender and bend the knee, the Starks never did this and the Reynes might not have done either.

Obviously he meant noble women. Even Victarion treats noble women different. Letting Gregor loose because he is the most feared and greatest fighting knights is something else.

Gregor is not a prominent member of his council in anyway.

I'm in two minds. Why confess to Tyrion that you ordered the murder of two children, while denying that you ordered the murder (and rape) of the mother? OTOH, Oberyn's argument is plausible, and a live mother would be a permanent embarrassment to Tywin (and Robert) if she can give evidence that her children had been murdered. Elia could not have been kept a hostage forever (that would guarantee Dornish enmity, rather than acquiescence) and sooner or later she'd be demanding justice for her children. Once the murder of the children had been determined, the murder of the mother became a necessity.

The children could easily have been led away from Elia by armed knights. She was not even in the room when Rhaenys died and could not testify anything. I doubt Tywin wanted the murder to be carried out that way. It's a bit like Bara and her mother. The mother was never supposed to be killed.

[Master of Laws]

I doubt Tywin explicitly ordered Gregor to rape and murder Elia, but probably gave some very open-ended instructions while being aware of Gregor's brutality.

[SeanF]

What exactly was the quote about HarrenhaL?

Yes you helpy your enemies when they surrender and bend the knee, the Starks never did this and the Reynes might not have done either.

Obviously he meant noble women. Even Victarion treats noble women different. Letting Gregor loose because he is the most feared and greatest fighting knights is something else.

Gregor is not a prominent member of his council in anyway.

The children could easily have been led away from Elia by armed knights. She was not even in the room when Rhaenys died and could not testify anything. I doubt Tywin wanted the murder to be carried out that way. It's a bit like Bara and her mother. The mother was never supposed to be killed.

Perhaps we're getting to the bottom of it. The children were meant to "die of natural causes." Once Ser Gregor and Ser Amory had murdered them in the most brutal way possible, Ser Gregor then had to kill the mother.

[Elfaki]

I think it's Tywin's way of washing his hands. Yes he ordered the children murder, but that was a political sane decision in Westeros since letting them grow up was a threat to the throne (I'm not justifying such cruelty but it was a decision Tywin would make, and did).

Elia was not a direct threat to the line of succession but her death sent a message to the realm, and Tywin is calculative down to the very last detail so sending those two for the job is clear that Elia's death was his intention all along, and saying to Tyrion otherwise doesn't mean anything since he was shown to condradict his sayings by his private actions: His very verbal diastase for whores and then keeping Shae bound in his room for pleasure. So the "he said it was a folly" out loud isn't that much of a strong argument. Also by not specifically giving the order makes a somewhat grey area for his opponents to his benefit. Not punishing the Mountain directly afterwards was a clear mistake of his part though.

[SeanF]

On the basis of realpolitik (I'm not saying it's anything other than immoral) perhaps Tywin and Robert should have just murdered the entire Dornish royal family, after the overthrow of Aerys. Dornishmen are noted for their willingness to take revenge, and the murder of Elia and the children meant that Doran and Oberyn would always be enemies.

[Roadside Rose]

look what he did to Robb. Oberyn is right.

[SeanF]

look what he did to Robb. Oberyn is right.

If Tywin was telling the truth to Tyrion (if!) he was intending Robb's assassination to be a surgical strike, rather than the bloodbath that took place. That's the line he gives to Tyrion about Elia and the children, too.

[Fat Mac]

look what he did to Robb. Oberyn is right.

Once again, it was Tywin giving the go ahead, without getting in to the specifics. He probably told Gregor and Amory to "kill the prince and princess" and not much else. Since Elia was in the way, Gregor probably thought to kill her too. And, since Gregor is a rapist, he raped her without a second thought.

Just because the royal family was killed in a brutal way and Robb and the northmen were killed in a brutal way does not mean Tywin specifically ordered them to be killed in such a fashion. He knew Rhaegar's children needed to die, as well as Robb. But I highly doubt he specifically told Gregor to rape and murder Elia, and specifically told Walder Frey to use crossbowmen as musicians and then shoot Robb. I think its clear that Tywin gave the go ahead, but left the specifics as to how it should be done to the killers themselves.

[Light a wight tonight]

I always find the sort of answer Tywin gives to be evasive. "How could you believe I would do such a thing?" versus "I didn't do it". He doubtless didn't specifically order it but knew that it was likely. He really didn't much care.

[Jory Cassel]

I always find the sort of answer Tywin gives to be evasive. "How could you believe I would do such a thing?" versus "I didn't do it". He doubtless didn't specifically order it but knew that it was likely. He really didn't much care.

I believe that Tywin used that phrase somewhere in his monologue, bringing up the subject of the rape himself, not as an answer to Tyrion.

[Maxpey]

I think the fact that Tywin never punished Gregor and tried to keep him as a pet even after promising the Martells justice just proves that he is guilty.

He'd have to punish Gregor for provoking one of the great houses as a permanent enemy...if it wasn't intentional on Tywin's part.

:agree: Plus, Tywin had no problem presenting the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon to Robert as a token of his "loyalty", even though both were horribly mutilated (although he did have them wrapped in crimson cloaks to try and hide the blood - I guess he wasn't completely insensitive ;) ).

[Zman1863]

Although this is ultimately indecipherable I tend to think the Oberyn hit on the truth. I think it is quite possible that Tywin conceals the full story and his personal motive for having Elia killed when talking to Tyrion. Tywin clearly worked hard to keep aspects of himself that deviate from his own public standards hidden from everybody. If he had a secret weakness for whores he may well have had other secrets. Tywin frames his more horrific actions as careful and measured- he does what is necessary. His personal code is against letting emotions dictate action. He had a personal motive for wanting Elia dead and if he acted on it, it would be consistent with his other behavior that he would conceal it.

[Frey Pie]

I honestly see the Sack of KL and Elia and the kids murder as Tywin paying his debts. In fact I get the feeling the saying A Lannister always pays their debts was coined by Tywin. His political stance on Dorne does not make sense unless he still has that chip or some grude

I don't think he orders her rape though. But does it matter? Tywin holds the fault for ordering his monsters on babies. All the surplus is his responsibility also

[mrunderhill]

Although this is ultimately indecipherable I tend to think the Oberyn hit on the truth. I think it is quite possible that Tywin conceals the full story and his personal motive for having Elia killed when talking to Tyrion. Tywin clearly worked hard to keep aspects of himself that deviate from his own public standards hidden from everybody. If he had a secret weakness for whores he may well have had other secrets. Tywin frames his more horrific actions as careful and measured- he does what is necessary. His personal code is against letting emotions dictate action. He had a personal motive for wanting Elia dead and if he acted on it, it would be consistent with his other behavior that he would conceal it.

Except we know the Tarbecks was all about revenge. He even smiled publicly at their destruction. He hated the Tarbecks with a passion and made sure they paid. Cersei wasn't even rejected for Elia. After Cersei's rejection, Aerys sent Steffon Baratheon to find a bride. Only after that he chose Elia.

Even in Tywin's version of events he made the mistake, because he was worried about Jaime.

[Victor227]

Do remember, this is a good... fifteen years before the start of the series? Tywin's excuse of not quite knowing what he had in Clegane yet is indeed plausible. He's a young, huge, dangerous knight, but there's no indication that Tywin's sent him Riverlands'ing around at any point yet. Likewise, Lorch's had well over a decade to mellow out a bit too. You can't just 'know' a guy's going to rape and kill a frail Dornish Princess if you fail to mention her.

I mean, I suppose it's possible that he's both telling the truth to Tyrion, and omitting the fact that he wanted to see what Gregor would do, while leaving himself guilt-free. But at the same time, his words about having to deal with a -lot of stuff- at the time are true too. Ned Stark was leading a rebel host just hours from him, and he had to direct the Sacking, get Jaime, ensure Aerys' line was extinguished, prepare to negotiate with Ned, and also prepare to fight him too, and then prepare for the repercussions of that should it happen. Those were a busy few hours.

[Black Mike Secret]

I think the answer lies in how Tywin reacted to the murder of Princess Rhaenys. Let's not forget that Gregor wasn't the only one who scaled the walls and attacked the royal family. Amory Lorch was was with him and stabbed the girl over 50 times.

Tywin said that if Lorch had the sense of a turnip, he would have used a soft pillow to suffocate the girl. I can't imagine that he thought this for Lorch while being okay with Gregor committing his atrocities. I think he just wanted the royal family did and didn't anticipate the upcoming brutality.

However, the only people who know for a fact were Lorch, Tywin, and Gregor and they're all dead or deadish.

[Frey Pie]

Do remember, this is a good... fifteen years before the start of the series? Tywin's excuse of not quite knowing what he had in Clegane yet is indeed plausible. He's a young, huge, dangerous knight, but there's no indication that Tywin's sent him Riverlands'ing around at any point yet. Likewise, Lorch's had well over a decade to mellow out a bit too. You can't just 'know' a guy's going to rape and kill a frail Dornish Princess if you fail to mention her.

I mean, I suppose it's possible that he's both telling the truth to Tyrion, and omitting the fact that he wanted to see what Gregor would do, while leaving himself guilt-free. But at the same time, his words about having to deal with a -lot of stuff- at the time are true too. Ned Stark was leading a rebel host just hours from him, and he had to direct the Sacking, get Jaime, ensure Aerys' line was extinguished, prepare to negotiate with Ned, and also prepare to fight him too, and then prepare for the repercussions of that should it happen. Those were a busy few hours.

I'm thinking he had a fair idea who he was sending to murder children. Especially royal children

[Lady Nastja]

I fully believe that he gave the order.

For the rape? Probably not. For the murder? Certainly.

Tywin is ruthless, and not the type to simply forget about Elia. No, he wanted her dead because the Martells had usurped his chance to marry Cersei to Rhaegar, and a Lannister pays his debts.