Why did Martin choose to portray Uncat as evil and monstrous?

[newwb]

When did UnCat ever did anything evil or morally wrong? She's more just and cares more for the orphans than Beric Dondarrion ever did, way above anybody else not named "Stark", "Jon Snow" or "Doran Martell".

The sole negative about her is the "rotting zombie". And maybe that we see her through the PoVs of people she intends to hang - which is very much justified!

But yes, impressions do count. She is the curse of the Red Wedding made flesh. She is just. And justice isn't pretty. She is nemesis.

most people consider murder to be wrong, no matter what the justification is

[MRHD]

I think he made UnCat unsympathetic because he doesn't want us to just be blindly rooting for vengeance and make this a black/white dichotomy. We're supposed to question the morality of what she's doing and therefore the morality of revenge in general, we're supposed to question what type of resolution it is that we want out of this.

[N/A]

she's not monstrous or evil you chose to view her as such

if you didn't want vengeance after experiencing what she did there is something wrong with you

[total1402]

It's made to make people like you reflect on what vengeance is and maybe see the other characters who have the same ideas in another light.

Also to make people remember that the bloody "vengeance" and genocide some readers desire implies killing people. Obviously to most killing a whole family including kids and women is peachy but not even executing someone who betrays you is "evil".

Vengeance is perfectly justified if justice cannot or will not be given by a lawful authority. If somebody comes and butchers your entire family then you want vengeance. The only other option is turn the other cheek and I do not find that to be a natural or morally right reaction.

I defy anyone to say that having your son killed in front of you after the rest of your family has been murdered for no just reason would make you want revenge on them.

Indeed I think the author doesn't present the issue well. Either vengeance destroys and consumes you or you turn the other cheek (Monk Hound)? Kind of absolute and doesn't really leave any room for nuance. He doesn't present a solution to this its just a brutal experience the characters go through.

[Minsc]

most people consider murder to be wrong, no matter what the justification is

Is it murder to execute someone guilty of a crime?

[Errant Bard]

"We" do not all sympathize with Jamie Lannister. Some of "us" still think he is an arrogant, unrepentant brat who has only changed his mode of narcicism from "I don't care what anyone thinks and I kill who I want" to 'I wanna be remembered as a nice guy, sniffle, sniffle".

While Jaime did not change, I feel it's doing his character a disservice to reduce it to those descriptions.

Of course I did sympathise with him (this does not mean excusing his actions, mind) before he had a PoV (and I thought Tyrion was a pathetic jerk from his first chapter onwards, in related points) so I might be odd.

[Cas Stark]

If you think Jaime is unrepentant, you've missed a ton of important stuff. Re-read the chapter in A Storm of Swords with him going through the White Book.

What's he sorry for exactly? When he thinks back on throwing Bran out the window he is only sorry because Cersei gave him grief about it, not because throwing a child out of a window to hide your own crimes was wrong. He's not particularly sorry about the war his family started since he is continuing to do their bidding, and was quite ready to command the siege of Riverrun and kill Edmure and his unborn child. Is he sorry for his incestuous relationship with his bitch sister? I must have missed that, all I remember is how he still lusts after her and alternatively feels sorry for himself that she now treats him like dirt and resents her. He thinks back on having sex w/Cersei the night Arya disappeared and he doesn't seem sorry about the idea that if he had found her he would have maimed her or killed her, as his sister wanted.

He feels sorry for himself that he wasted his life and talent and potential being his sister's lapdog and pretending not to care about the things he once thought were important. Boo hoo.

[newwb]

Is it murder to execute someone guilty of a crime?

what gives her the authority?

[James Sucellus]

I genuinely didn't think it'd be remotely controversial for me to claim that Jaime had been made more sympathetic while Cat has been made less so. Kinda confused at the reaction.

I like UnCat because it's an answer for those fanatical "We want capital justice!" type that spring up in the media, notably when a kid goes missing or is killed. When Robb is killed we want justice, then are terrified by UnCat's actions in ASoS and AFFC.

Yet still, some fans demand every Frey and Lannister deserves to be hanged. I can't help but feel they've missed the point of what GRRM is trying to say.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Pretty much every reader wants the Freys to come to a grisly end. Indeed all of the other living starks express this desire at one point or another. Sansa suggests giving Harrenhal to Walder Frey. Arya wishes she knew their names to add all of them to her list. We even have Manderly making Frey pies. So, I just don't get why Martin would want to portray this instance of vengeance as a horrible thing. In other chapters he really plays on the reader wanting vengence on the Freys; but with her plays the exact opposite tune.

Because Martin loves this kind of subversion and twisting of perception. Direwolf_Dragon has the right of it. He often makes the audience feel like characters are justified and have the right of it until we see the larger picture. At the end of A Storm of Swords, much of the audience is like "Yeah! You go, UnCat! Kill dem Freys!" (despite the sympathetic nature of Merrett, honestly) but then by A Feast for Crows and we see UnCat willingly to casually murder innocent Podrick Payne*, we see that this raged filled abomination isn't a monster killer but a monster herself, that the Brotherhood aren't Robin Hood and his Merry Men and could easily turn into the Bloody Mummers under the right leadership. Martin's played this card before and I think he'll play it again before the series is over (mainly with Dany, IMO, and if she ever arrives in Westeros).

* For those sticking up for UnCat while criticizing Jaime, think on this: when Jaime tried to kill an innocent boy, terrible an act though it may be, it was to protect the person he absolutely loves and cares about from her certain death if Bran were to tell. When UnCat tries to kill an innocent boy, she has absolutely no reason.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

most people consider murder to be wrong, no matter what the justification is

Murder? What Uncat does is about as far from that as possible. While we could debate whether capital punishment is morally right or wrong, it's anything but murder. And every single person Cat executes is guilty of capital crimes which according to Westerosi laws is punished by execution.

[Minsc]

what gives her the authority?

Her command of the BWB,

[Bright Blue Eyes]

what gives her the authority?

Being the senior Stark and Tully not deaddead or captured. Being in command of the BWB.

A better authority than any Lannister traitor ever had.

Because Martin loves this kind of subversion and twisting of perception. Direwolf_Dragon has the right of it. He often makes the audience feel like characters are justified and have the right of it until we see the larger picture. At the end of A Storm of Swords, much of the audience is like "Yeah! You go, UnCat! Kill dem Freys!" (despite the sympathetic nature of Merrett, honestly) but then by A Feast for Crows and we see UnCat willingly to casually murder innocent Podrick Payne, we see that this raged filled abomination isn't a monster killer but a monster herself, that the Brotherhood aren't Robin Hood and his Merry Men and could easily turn into the Bloody Mummers under the right leadership. Martin's played this card before and I think he'll play it again before the series is over (mainly with Dany, IMO, and if she ever arrives in Westeros).

Innocent Podrick Payne? Treason, war crimes, isn't that enough? Sparing him would be mercy, not justice.

[James Sucellus]

Murder? What Uncat does is about as far from that as possible.

WHAT!!!!???

What had Pod done, that made him deserve being hanged? Please explain.

[Errant Bard]

Vengeance is perfectly justified if justice cannot or will not be given by a lawful authority. If somebody comes and butchers your entire family then you want vengeance. The only other option is turn the other cheek and I do not find that to be a natural or morally right reaction.

I don't consider genocide moral, and I find those who defend the concept, even applied to fiction, a disgrace.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Innocent Podrick Payne? Treason, war crimes, isn't that enough?

HUH?! What treason and war crimes did Pod commit??????

[Mulled Wino]

What's he sorry for exactly? When he thinks back on throwing Bran out the window he is only sorry because Cersei gave him grief about it, not because throwing a child out of a window to hide your own crimes was wrong. He's not particularly sorry about the war his family started since he is continuing to do their bidding, and was quite ready to command the siege of Riverrun and kill Edmure and his unborn child. Is he sorry for his incestuous relationship with his bitch sister? I must have missed that, all I remember is how he still lusts after her and alternatively feels sorry for himself that she now treats him like dirt and resents her. He thinks back on having sex w/Cersei the night Arya disappeared and he doesn't seem sorry about the idea that if he had found her he would have maimed her or killed her, as his sister wanted.

He feels sorry for himself that he wasted his life and talent and potential being his sister's lapdog and pretending not to care about the things he once thought were important. Boo hoo.

he's clearly sorry he lost his sword hand

[Father of Hosts]

I like Cat being a monster with no discernible moral code, those are very much lacking from the series. She's just straight up killing people with the last name Frey. Besides, she may have Cat's body but LS is in no way the Catelyn from the books. GRRM says as much.

She would have murdered Pod if not for Brienne, obviously not Cat. And yes, she is straight up murdering people, Frey or not.

[James Sucellus]

* For those sticking up for UnCat while criticizing Jaime, think on this: when Jaime tried to kill an innocent boy, terrible an act though it may be, it was to protect the person he absolutely loves and cares about from her certain death if Bran were to tell. When UnCat tries to kill an innocent boy, she has absolutely no reason.

The most sensible thing said in this thread.

That hasn't come from me ;).

[Cas Stark]

I don't consider genocide moral, and I find those who defend the concept, even applied to fiction, a disgrace.

The BWB isn't commiting genocide. They're hanging people who were involved in the Red Wedding or who were found to have committed war crimes against the smallfolk after having given them a trial because the lawful authorities conspired in the massacre and so are not going to bring them to justice.