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Prophecies?


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10 replies to this topic

#1 Victarion10

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:32 AM

Hey, i'm new here, recently finished the books and I have no friends who read the books so apologies if you have heard this before...

Do you guys want any prophecies to come true? I for one hope none of them come true but each character creates his own legacy rather than Dany becoming "Aegon the Conqueror with tits" I want her to have her own name and legacy, be it as a failure or a hero, same with the Azor Ahai Reborn and the Prince who was promised. I actually hope that Rhaegar was the Prince who was promised and everyone unites to fight and defeat the Others creating a new legacy.

What do you think?

#2 The Dornishman's Wife

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:40 AM

Welcome to the forum Victarion10! /grouphug.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':grouphug:' />

I like the prophecies as riddles we can puzzle about while we wait for the next book. As such, I hope they come true, or else all my puzzling will be in vain! /dunce.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunce:' />

But you're right of course, I wouldn't want the characters' development to be totally bound by prophecies either. This is why I think it's very good that e.g. the Rhaego prophecy (he'll be such a great khal, and the stallion who fucks the world over etc) was subverted, showing that a prophecy is no guarantee for greatness, but that greatness has to be earned by the characters themselves.

So what I wish for is a balance: The main prophecies should come true, but in their own way and the characters should not just have the legacy of their forbears fall in their laps, but struggle and create their own legacy. And I believe they will. /smug.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smug:' />

Edited by The Dornishman's Wife, 10 July 2013 - 06:42 AM.


#3 fiekie

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:51 AM

In greek tragedy, and in subsequent forms of literature and the arts through the ages, prophesies require agency. The person hears the prophecy and acts upon it, thus ensuring it comes true - the "self-fulfilling prophecy", of which Oedipus is an obvious example. Prophecies are very much tied up with religion and spirituality, and so far the Old Gods and R'hllor seem to have some sort of influence... Also, prophecies are usually used as a plot device to build tension, or as red herring to divert attention. They obviously have some meaning for the series; if only to keep us occupied here on the forums so that Martin can write in peace /rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />


#4 mighty potato

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:02 AM

welcome to the forum hope you have as much fun as we all do and for this to be place to be your little asoiaf oasis /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />

as for prophecies i tend to agree with you to a certain extent

here's a little wisdom about them from George

“That is the nature of prophecy... Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.”

now see we all like to think the we control our own destiny and that we hold the keys and choose the path but how true is this really ?

characters make decisions that take them from one place to another (and these decisions are made upon previous knowledge which usually includes the prophecy) so basically they're fulfilling the prophecy with their own hands

these prophecies could be linked to the past in a recurring cycle
or they could be the webbing of madness and delusion

Edited by mighty potato, 10 July 2013 - 07:02 AM.


#5 Knight Of Winter

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:03 AM

First and foremost, welcome to the forum /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

While discussing prophecies, I'm reminded of Marwyn's and Gorghan's thoughts about it:

a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is ... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time


I'd like prophecies in ASOIAF to follow that pattern: they should rarely be literal truth - but almost always have some sort of twist to them. Maybe be prophecy means something completely different than you think it means, maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy (valonqar prophecy may come to this), maybe prophecy is defied by some character's actions (or lack thereof) - like Mirri prevented Stallion Who Mounts The World from living, maybe the prophecy is false....

Thankfully, Martinworld does not run on You Can't Fight Fate trope, but creates setting where each character follows his own logic and shapes his own fate - which makes for much more interesting story. Books where prophecies are always truth and followed to a tie tend be less suspenseful and boring-ish.

#6 The Duke

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:21 AM

Pretty much every character in ASoIaF either misinterprets or takes a prophecy/vision/future dream to mean what they want it to mean. Sometimes they are in the ballpark, but nobody has been accurate or figured out exactly what it was supposed to mean. It has been a nice way to have foreshadowing without letting the stakes or risk for the characters fall, so the tension never drops.

Edited by The Duke, 10 July 2013 - 07:22 AM.


#7 Mladen

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:23 AM

Well, IIRC, GRRM once said: The first rule of the prophecies and visions is that what is prophecised must happen. The trick is it won't happen maybe in the way we think it would, but nevertheless, it will happen. Unfortunately, it all depends on interpretation. And when we don't have original prophecy to disect, like in AAR/PTWP case, we are stuck with characters interpreting for us. And sometimes the interpretation is what is misleading us.

Edited by Mladen, 10 July 2013 - 07:23 AM.


#8 mindchap

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:51 AM

I don't want Dany to be Aegon with teats, I want her to be Rhaenyra with a crown. And welcome btw. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#9 Vuron

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:56 AM

They will all come true, but maybe not in the way that we, and the characters, think.

Edited by Vuron, 10 July 2013 - 07:56 AM.


#10 Ser Luke.

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:16 AM

I believe some of the prophecies will come true, and some won't. And others will happen, except not at all the way we thought they would.

#11 Dragonstar

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:14 AM

Some might come true more literally than others. What's more interesting to me is the impact the prophecy has on the people who believe they are being prophesized about.

Dany is haunted by the prophesy of 3 betrayals & Quaithes warning to trust none of the people she is prophesized to meet. Practically every Dany chapter in Dance follows the downward spiral of her mounting paranoia. A bit reminiscent of her own father Mad Aerys' descent into paranoid psychosis /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Cersei similarly is driven to extremes in what she believes is an out-gaming of Maggy the frogs prophecy

But I believe that in doing what they are doing by reacting so fundamentally to these prophecies and trying to subvert them, they are only making their fulfillment that much more inevitable.

By the end of Dance, Dany has managed to be so mistrustful and imprudent in judging people that she is reduced to someone who people are very likely to betray. In ACoK and aSoS she was so triumphant and approachable and winsome to those nearest to her. But the end of Dance, her enemy count is out of control. She's lucky if she is only betrayed thrice.


Ditto Cersei, all her thoughts of out-gamification have only resulted in her downfall, and in more people who resent her and threaten the lives of her two remaining children. As for the Valonqar She's already set up the sibling rivalry to end all sibling rivalries with Tyrion, but by the end of Feast & Dance, seems to have alienated Jaime fairly we
L too.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.