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A Clash of Personalities: Activity vs. Passivity in Relationships


Éadaoin

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It depends on what we mean or how we define 'submissive'. Certain personalities can create a perception that someone is dominant and that another person is submissive. Take Robert and Ned, for example. Who would be viewed as dominant and who as submissive? But it seems to me that Ned is the more dominant of the two even though he is quiet and reserved.

The same can be said for Jon and Ygritte. I think Jon is happy letting Ygritte make suggestions or even decisions for the both of them as long as it's a decision that he agrees with. I don't think that necessarily makes him submissive.

Well, true... But for me in these relationships, submissive doesn;t have its original meaning. I mean, it would be like Jon or Ned are more lenient towards Ygritte or Cat. Also, you have quiet dominant person, like Wyman Manderly, who with North remembers line made Davos realize he is stull strong man...

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Based on what? Am really curious on what are you basing this assertion. Post Blackwater we have the following:

-He lets her stage that god awful, ridiculous, over the top ceremony when the wildings are let in. A ceremony where he didn’t even appear exactly comfortable, which is no surprise since he’s anything but flashy.

Yes, he does that's true enough. He had just beaten them and forced them to kneel, this was a gesture of power and force, I don't see why this shows mels influence over him.

- The NW brothers (who appear never to have heard tales or gossips of this Red Priest due to their high levels of isolation with the rest of Westeros) are very much aware that Mel is Stannis “true queen”. They are making these observations based on first hand perception which indicates that her influence over Stannis is very palpable to those around them. Her influence over him is perceived as so predominant that Jon genuinely feared for Aemon and Mance's baby on account of her, even with Stannis' reputation of being a just man. The fact that his reputation of a just man is clouded by the general perception of Mel's power over him shows that Mel's influence over him is there for everyone to see.

this doesnt show that shes calling shots though. Merely that he listens to her counsel and takes what she says seriously. Shes a great adviser to him.

- She’ still present in important meetings even when important lords and counselors are dismissed. Jon makes note of this.

Once again, he trusts her as he trusts davos. Would you say that davos is the dominant one in their relationship? I dont see mel making any decisions.

- He appears to have swallowed the AA bs

Yes, he has seen her power firsthand and he fears that if he doubts her and what she says is true mankind may become extinct.

- He was still sleeping with her while at the Wall

Well, yeah, not sure what the point here is either for her calling any shots. They are having sex, thats a fact.

I think the reason it might be perceive that her influence is less is because around half the book we no longer see them together (by the way I wonder who's decision was it to leave Mel at the Wall. Based on her shadow making designs on Jon and her excitement on the magic of the Wall increasing her powers I'd say hers). The most I can say is that, unlike post-Blackwater, he seems able to function without her.

Yes, he starts making more decisions without her, and he still takes what she says into account but is less likely to act on it now.

First off, thanks for the compliments, guys. Thought this would be an interesting topic to explore, and E-Ro helped me out quite a bit, so give him props too. (He loves the attention.)

yeah i love you too.

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Now Im wondering about Lysa/Jon.

It seems that Lysa was able to get Jon to do some things she desires (Bringing LF to King Landing), but then you see her resorting to poisoning her husband when he intends to send him away to be fostered elsewhere (Probably shows that she couldn't have him do what she wants). Though the poison could easily be LFs idea.

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I would actually consider Ned the more submissive of the two, even if we are not taking Nedbert into account.

Even though we have evidence Ned practically worshipped Robert as the "horned god" he was, I believe Robert was the more submissive of the two. Not unlike "gilded cage" syndrome, in which the dominant party domesticates/ controls while simultaneously revering the object of their affection. Robert knew why the caged bird sings. Perhaps this should be explored further...

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Even though we have evidence Ned practically worshipped Robert as the "horned god" he was, I believe Robert was the more submissive of the two. Not unlike "gilded cage" syndrome, in which the dominant party domesticates/ controls while simultaneously revering the object of their affection. Robert knew why the caged bird sings. Perhaps this should be explored further...

I don't know about this one... I mean Ned showed how strong he is when he argued with Robert not once but twice, but then also we saw him making excuses for him to Lyanna... yes, this one is particularly interesting, and I agree, it should be explored...

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Even though we have evidence Ned practically worshipped Robert as the "horned god" he was, I believe Robert was the more submissive of the two. Not unlike "gilded cage" syndrome, in which the dominant party domesticates/ controls while simultaneously revering the object of their affection. Robert knew why the caged bird sings. Perhaps this should be explored further...

*vejazzled cage syndrome, I believe.

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Even though we have evidence Ned practically worshipped Robert as the "horned god" he was, I believe Robert was the more submissive of the two. Not unlike "gilded cage" syndrome, in which the dominant party domesticates/ controls while simultaneously revering the object of their affection. Robert knew why the caged bird sings. Perhaps this should be explored further...

I think that's a very good point. While Cat is by far the stronger in her relationship with Ned, Robert does seem to be far more submissive. After Ned left him, and Robert took comfort in alcohol, emotionless sex and food. There was something missing from his life and he filled this gulf with hedonism. Once Robert no longer had Ned to direct him, he lost interest in his job and his duty and became a drunken sot. Robert doesn't reclaim his former stature until Ned returns to him and puts his foot down over the issue of the assassination of Daenerys.

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I would actually consider Ned the more submissive of the two, even if we are not taking Nedbert into account. Ned is stoic and quiet but, in my opinion, Cat is the stronger and more influential in their relationship. Ned has the strength of stone, but Cat has the power of the rushing river, and the river is the more powerful.

I was referring to Ned and Robert in that post. I agree with those who have said that Ned was dominant.

As far as Ned and Cat, I think Cat is intelligent and Ned is smart to take her opinion into account. Cat may have the more dominant personality, and I agree that she does. But I don't see Ned as submissive. Heck, for those of us with long-lasting relationships with the fairer sex, ceding points is essential (I'm only half-joking), but I digress.

I think for me, being submissive means that the other individual can force you to do things you don't want to do (not in a physical sense either). Sort of like Cersei controls Jaime.

Other people can be manipulated into doing things they don't want to do, but do we count that as submissive also? Or just dumb? To me though, being submissive comes down to doing things or making decisions that you wouldn't have done or made without the influence of your partner, no matter whether you are doing it out of love, lust, fear of losing the person.

I wouldn't count physical aggression being used against you as proof of submissiveness as at that point it's more of surviving.

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*vejazzled cage syndrome, I believe.

Yea, only a poster calling themselves "not butterbumps" would commit such an egregious travesty in bringing up "vajazzling" in reference to the very real and insidious power dynamic that is the gilded cage. Shame on you. Be more serial!

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I was referring to Ned and Robert in that post.

As far as Ned and Cat, I think Cat is intelligent and Ned is smart to take her opinion into account. Cat may have the more dominant personality, and I agree that she does. But I don't see Ned as submissive. Heck, for those of us with long-lasting relationships with the fairer sex, ceding points is essential (I'm only half-joking), but I digress.

I think for me, being submissive means that the other individual can force you to do things you don't want to do (not in a physical sense either). Sort of like Cersei controls Jaime.

Other people can be manipulated into doing things they don't want to do, but do we count that as submissive also? Or just dumb? To me though, being submissive comes down to doing things or making decisions that you wouldn't have done or made without the influence of your partner, no matter whether you are doing it out of love, lust, fear of losing the person.

I wouldn't count physical aggression being used against you as proof of submissiveness as at that point it's more of surviving.

I personally disagree with your definition of being submissive. I would consider being submissive a choice. It's not about being forced to do things that you don't want to, in my opinion, it's about willingly submitting to the will of another person. I think we see this with both Ned and Robert in their relationships.

ETA: It is for this reason that I would say that Stannis is a submissive partner in his relationship with Davos. Stannis has the right to command Davos, Davos has pledged fealty and service to him, yet Davos always stands up to Stannis and never submits. More often that not, it is Davos' will that triumphs over Stannis'.

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Yea, only a poster calling themselves "not butterbumps" would commit such an egregious travesty in bringing up "vajazzling" in reference to the very real and insidious power dynamic that is the gilded cage. Shame on you. Be more serial!

Can you explain to me what exactly a gilded cage means? I am unsure what that is.

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Yea, only a poster calling themselves "not butterbumps" would commit such an egregious travesty in bringing up "vajazzling" in reference to the very real and insidious power dynamic that is the gilded cage. Shame on you. Be more serial!

I really don't think we butterballs should be bickering amongst ourselves. But if you think a harmless joke is more important than butterball unity, so be it.

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Can you explain to me what exactly a gilded cage means? I am unsure what that is.

Basically all of Sansa's time in KL is an example, as is Shae's being kept at that Manse and even the Dosh Khaleen. It refers to being kept in luxury, even at times revered or worshipped (though this isn't a necessary condition), but prevented from leaving or exercising your own agency.

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ETA: It is for this reason that I would say that Stannis is a submissive partner in his relationship with Davos. Stannis has the right to command Davos, Davos has pledged fealty and service to him, yet Davos always stands up to Stannis and never submits. More often that not, it is Davos' will that triumphs over Stannis'.

Davos was obviously dominant. Stannis is submissive even to Mel, but just as much if not more so to Davos. Davos always gets through to Stannis somehow and always submits. I reckon when Davos returns from Skagosi Adventures, he'll get Stannis to submit to the idea of Rickon.

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Basically all of Sansa's time in KL is an example, as is Shae's being kept at that Manse and even the Dosh Khaleen. It refers to being kept in luxury, even at times revered or worshipped (though this isn't a necessary condition), but prevented from leaving or exercising your own agency.

Would you say this applies to Bran in the cave?

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I was referring to Ned and Robert in that post. I agree with those who have said that Ned was dominant.

As far as Ned and Cat, I think Cat is intelligent and Ned is smart to take her opinion into account. Cat may have the more dominant personality, and I agree that she does. But I don't see Ned as submissive. Heck, for those of us with long-lasting relationships with the fairer sex, ceding points is essential (I'm only half-joking), but I digress.

I think for me, being submissive means that the other individual can force you to do things you don't want to do (not in a physical sense either). Sort of like Cersei controls Jaime.

Other people can be manipulated into doing things they don't want to do, but do we count that as submissive also? Or just dumb? To me though, being submissive comes down to doing things or making decisions that you wouldn't have done or made without the influence of your partner, no matter whether you are doing it out of love, lust, fear of losing the person.

I wouldn't count physical aggression being used against you as proof of submissiveness as at that point it's more of surviving.

When you take into account how Cat strategically plans out her argument about betrothing Sansa and asking Ned to become hand of the king, I think it what you said is spot on.

Cat is objectively smarter than Ned, in that after 15 or so years of marriage, she has figured out which buttons to push and which ones not to push if she wants to change Ned's mind. I personally wouldn't consider Ned the more submissive but we may be just be talking about degrees now.

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Yes, he does that's true enough. He had just beaten them and forced them to kneel, this was a gesture of power and force, I don't see why this shows mels influence over him.

But Mel’s the party planner in that whole mess. The whole ceremony reeks of Mel’s version of “floppy ears”, what with the powder powers for illusions, the speeches, the glorification of the burning of another human being, albeit a traitor one (who by rights belonged to the NW), etc. Am sorry, but I don’t see Stannis in any of this. Everything is defined to fit what Mel interprets as power trappings. I doubt Stannis held any such ceremony after defeating the Ironborn.

Also, the degree of humiliation to which he subjected them is particularly cruel. Cressen himself said that Stannis had never been a cruel man.

this doesnt show that shes calling shots though. Merely that he listens to her counsel and takes what she says seriously. Shes a great adviser to him.

The fact that people are perceiving it so is unnerving and proof enough. If Mel’s influence wasn’t palpable for everyone to see there wouldn’t be any rumours hanging about. Am glad you brought up Davos. Is very telling that Davos (another person who extends his influence over Stannis in a quiet way) is barely mentioned, despite being Stannis’ official Hand.

Well, yeah, not sure what the point here is either for her calling any shots. They are having sex, thats a fact.

If we are talking about submission I feel this is a fair point. Stannis is a man very law abiding and duty oriented, who pretty much despised Robert’s whoremongering ways. And yet here he is carelessly cheating on his wife. For a man as unyielding and duty abiding as Stannis this is a marked change. He didn’t want to marry Selyse, but did it out of duty. He wasn’t attracted to her but fulfilled his “obligations” as a husband at least once a year out of duty. Fidelity to one’s spouse is a kind of duty, even in Westeros. This proves he has submitted his dutiful and a great part of his just side to her. Whether you want to admit it or not, when he started fooling around with her he submitted to “her” idea of a code and duty and relinquished his own.

Yes, he starts making more decisions without her, and he still takes what she says into account but is less likely to act on it now.

Again, because we don’t see them together I can’t be sure of these, unless there is textual evidence to suggest otherwise.

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Davos was obviously dominant. Stannis is submissive even to Mel, but just as much if not more so to Davos. Davos always gets through to Stannis somehow and always submits. I reckon when Davos returns from Skagosi Adventures, he'll get Stannis to submit to the idea of Rickon.

I think this is a really good example. Stannis is strong and relatively stoic, (if we excuse the teeth grinding,) and has a reputation for being intractable but in his personal relationships he is submissive. If we look at Cressen's prologue chapter he even submits to Selyse by not intervening.

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