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The Rightful Heir to the Iron Throne


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189 replies to this topic

#1 Victarion Chainbreaker

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:06 AM

There are many claimants to the Iron Throne, but there are only four main characters descended from the Aegon the Conqueror who have a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne. Their order of precedence depends on two contingencies: Is Aegon a Blackfyre? Is Jon the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

If Aegon is really Aegon and Jon is legitimate then:
1. Aegon
2. Jon
3. Dany
4. Stannis

If Aegon is a Blackfyre and Jon is legitimate then:
1. Jon
2. Dany
3. Stannis
4. Aegon

If Aegon’s a Blackfyre and Jon is illegitimate then:
1. Dany
2. Stannis
3. Aegon
4. Jon

If Aegon is Aegon and Jon is illegitimate then:
1. Aegon
2. Dany
3. Stannis
4. Jon

You’ll notice that Aegon, Jon, or Dany could all be the rightful heir under the right conditions. Stannis, however, never is. This is very important because Stannis is the one claimant who would willingly give up his claim if confronted with a better one. He has explicitly said that he doesn’t want the IT, but is fighting for it because he’s the rightful king, which he is as far as he knows. (I’m not including Jon as a ‘claimant’ because he hasn’t put forward any claim to the IT.)

I don’t see Stannis kneeling to anyone with a questionable claim, and even if Jon and Aegon are Rhaegar’s legitimate kids, their claims don’t have a lot of evidence behind them. I see Stannis only kneeling to Dany, the one person whose claim is better in every scenario.

I predict Stannis will lead the unified northern forces, while Dany leads the unified Southron forces, and they will join together when Stannis bends the knee to Dany.

Thoughts?

#2 therustman

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:09 AM

Robert won the Throne by conquest, this makes Stannis the rightful heir.
The others are Targ claimants who would need to conquer Westeros (or at least KL) to take the IT.

#3 rystine

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:12 AM

Miss that part in the story where the Targaryens were exiled and the Baratheons became the ruling family?

To Stannis, no Targaryen has any claim to the throne. So he will not kneel to any of them because they are no different than the usurper Lannisters. Simple as that.

#4 Mladen

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:12 AM

First, since Targaryens lost the Throne and Baratheons won it by the Right of Conquest, so they are the rightful heirs to the Throne.

So, it would be Tommen, Stannis...

But, for the sake of argument, I'll go with what I believe. Aegon is Blackfyre, and Jon is legitimate. Also, women can't inherit the Throne, so it would be:

1. Jon
2. Stannis

The end... Blackfyres were cut off, and Dany is woman

Edited by Mladen, 11 July 2013 - 08:13 AM.


#5 King of the Starks

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:12 AM

Robert won the Throne by conquest, this makes Stannis the rightful heir.
The others are Targ claimants who would need to conquer Westeros (or at least KL) to take the IT.

Yep. When Robert took the Throne by conquest the Baratheons, not the Targs, had the rightful claim to the Throne. If the Targs ever want a claim to the Throne again, then they'd need to take back like Robert did, by force.

#6 Kanali

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:13 AM

There is absolutely no way for Jon to be a legitimate Targaryen seeing as no king ever legitimised him.

#7 Squarely Rooted

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:16 AM

There is absolutely no way for Jon to be a legitimate Targaryen seeing as no king ever legitimised him.


He is if R & L were married.

#8 Ours is the Stannis

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:17 AM

There is absolutely no way for Jon to be a legitimate Targaryen seeing as no king ever legitimised him.


No need. Many people on this forum, like me, believe he was legitimate because Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

#9 Jory Cassel

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:17 AM

There is absolutely no way for Jon to be a legitimate Targaryen seeing as no king ever legitimised him.

Rhaegar marrying Lyanna

eta: ninja'd by the two above

Edited by Jory Cassel, 11 July 2013 - 08:18 AM.


#10 Victarion Chainbreaker

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:19 AM

Let's not forget the reason Robert got the throne instead of Ned or Jon or Tywin, who were all equal as leaders of the great houses. Any of them would have made a better King than Robert, IMHO, but Robert got the throne because his grandmother was Targaryan. The Baratheon claim depends on being Targaryan descendants.

The idea that The Baratheon dynasty (of one) is a whole new dynasty that claims their legitimacy through conquest is bologna. That rebellion was initiated by the North, fought by a coalition, and finished by the Westerlands. Robert didn't take the capital and kill the King, the Lannisters did. Robert's claim was based on his Targaryan blood.

Edit: adding the 2nd paragraph

Edited by Victarion the Awesome, 11 July 2013 - 08:30 AM.


#11 Mladen

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:24 AM

Let's not forget the reason Robert got the throne instead of Ned or Jon or Tywin, who were all equal as leaders of the great houses. Any of them would have made a better King than Robert, IMHO, but Robert got the throne because his grandmother was Targaryan. The Baratheon claim depends on being Targaryan descendants.


No, as Renly pointed out... Robert's warhammer was his right, not his grandmother...

#12 Knight Of Winter

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:27 AM

You could say Baratheons "rightfully" conquered the Iron Throne, so they are now lawful ruling family. In that case, Stannis is the heir.

You can also claim that Stannis made up story about incest, just to usurp the throne from his nephew - which "rightfully makes" Tommen the king, and Myrcella his heir.

Or you could believe that Bob's Rebellion was never rightful in the first place, that Baratheon dynasty are usurpers, which would make Dany rightful ruler of 7K.

You could also think that Dorne's rules of primogeniture are valid in Dorne, which makes Myrcella the lawful queen.

Or you could be Drogo, who doesn't care about succession at all, but simply wipes the floor with 7k armies and "rightfully" (by conquest) installs Rhaego as king.



My point is, laws such as we know nowdays DO NOT exist in 7 Kingdoms. They are not written or codified and can sometimes be vague, murky, contradictory and open to various interpretations. In the end, rightful ruler is not the one with so called best claim, but one who gets others to recognize him as king. Here are some quotes from SSM about this subject:

"Well, the short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpretations, and often contradictory."

There are no clear cut answers, either in Westeros or in real medieval history. Things were often decided on a case by case basis. A case might set a precedent for later cases... but as often as not, the precedents conflicted as much as the claims. In fact, if you look at medieval history, conflicting claims were the cause of three quarters of the wars.



#13 Morienthar

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:37 AM

Tommen then Stannis then Shireen then Myrcella,This is assuming Edric or Gendry aren't legitimized.

#14 Stannis 4 Prez

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:40 AM

Not only did Robert take the throne by right of conquest thus making Stannis the legitimate heir, Targaryen custom doesn't allow females to inherit and Stannis is a Targ cousin. Therefore Stannis is the rightful Baratheon heir being Robert's brother and the rightful Targ heir upon the death of Viseryis (assuming Aegon is fake and Lyanna and Rheagar never wed)

Edited by Stannis 4 Prez, 11 July 2013 - 08:43 AM.


#15 Pikachu101

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:43 AM

The Targaryens no longer have a claim to the IT /rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />

If Dany and Aegon want it back they're going to have to fight for it, no ones going to be handing it to them on a silver platter. I think George based them off Henry VII which means Aegon's going to have to marry either Sansa or Shireen to calm down rebels.

The rightful ruler is whoever has support.

North
Riverlands } Starks
Vale

Reach
} Tommen
Westerlands

Stormlands } Stannis

Dorne } probably Aegon but only because he's Elia's son

Iron Islands } Greyjoys

So there you go, those lot are the rightful rulers not Dany or Jon /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Edited by Pikachu101, 11 July 2013 - 08:44 AM.


#16 The Greenhand

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:48 AM

1- Stannis
2- Shireen

#17 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:48 AM

The Targaryens no longer have a claim to the IT /rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />

If Dany and Aegon want it back they're going to have to fight for it, no ones going to be handing it to them on a silver platter. I think George based them off Henry VII which means Aegon's going to have to marry either Sansa or Shireen to calm down rebels.

The rightful ruler is whoever has support.

North
Riverlands } Starks
Vale

Reach
} Tommen
Westerlands

Stormlands } Stannis

Dorne } probably Aegon but only because he's Elia's son

Iron Islands } Greyjoys

So there you go, those lot are the rightful rulers not Dany or Jon /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


They have a claim, they just don't rule right now. You don't lose a claim unless you give up on it yourself.

#18 Victarion Chainbreaker

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:51 AM

Out of curiosity, how many of you arguing that the Baratheons are the rightful heirs to the 7 Kingdoms would also argue that Roose Ramsey is the rightful heir of the North? The man did kill Robb, like Robert killed Rhaegar, and the Stark kids are scattered to the winds, much as the Targaryan kids were.

#19 The Greenhand

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:52 AM

You could say Baratheons "rightfully" conquered the Iron Throne, so they are now lawful ruling family. In that case, Stannis is the heir.

You can also claim that Stannis made up story about incest, just to usurp the throne from his nephew - which "rightfully makes" Tommen the king, and Myrcella his heir.


If Tommen is the rightful king,Stannis is his heir, not Myrcella.

#20 Toxspecific

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:52 AM

I hate to break it to you Targaryen fans, but on account of Aerys being a horrid ruler, action was take and Robert kicked some Targ ass, Robert became King, most of Westerosi Houses reconciled to the fact that the Targs weren't rulers of Westeros anymore.

It's the people on these forums who have a hard time believing that tossing the Targs out was fully just.