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NFL Thread: Arrest Season Continues


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#1 sperry

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:16 AM

The old thread was up over 20, so figured it was time for a new one.


I think we can dispel all this nonsense about the "patriot" way. It was genius PR. Instead of just acknowledging that you didn't care about someone's character as long as they could help you win, they spun it into the "Patriot Way" helping poor lost souls return to the light. Nope. Kraft and Belichik might have actually believed that crap to help them sleep better at night, but the reality is they were just going to sign any thug that could play and hope it worked out.

#2 DanteGabriel

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:29 AM

I didn't think the "Patriot Way" had anything to do with rehabilitating criminals, but more with work ethic, finding roles for players to excel in, "just do your job" and that sort of thing.

At this point, your post makes it clear that "Patriot Way" is just a fill-in-the-blank for people to criticize them over.

Edited by DanteGabriel, 11 July 2013 - 11:32 AM.


#3 Lord Flashheart

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:33 AM

The old thread was up over 20, so figured it was time for a new one.


I think we can dispel all this nonsense about the "patriot" way. It was genius PR. Instead of just acknowledging that you didn't care about someone's character as long as they could help you win, they spun it into the "Patriot Way" helping poor lost souls return to the light. Nope. Kraft and Belichik might have actually believed that crap to help them sleep better at night, but the reality is they were just going to sign any thug that could play and hope it worked out.


Who hurt you?

#4 Maithanet

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:37 AM

I didn't think the "Patriot Way" had anything to do with rehabilitating criminals, but more with work ethic, finding roles for players to excel in, "just do your job" and that sort of thing.

At this point, your post makes it clear that "Patriot Way" is just a fill-in-the-blank for people to criticize them over.

I don't think it had anything to do with rehabilitating criminals, but I definitely do think that Coach B took the approach of taking guys who are high risk, including guys with character concerns/criminal history. The thinking was (presumably) that the Patriot Way of working hard, providing structure and showing everyone the right path would help them to avoid getting into trouble. This kind of leadership can work for some troubled young men, but it is never going to work for everybody. And given the recent failures, I think it calls into question whether or not the Patriots are really providing any better organizational support than any other NFL team.

#5 sperry

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:44 AM

I wouldn't have thought anything of it if Kraft hadn't been out there giving this holier than thou routine, acting like he, a billionaire businessman, was bamboozled by a common street thug. If you can't own up to the truth of overlooking his character because he was really good, than just shut up about it. I just hate it when people outright lie to CTA.

#6 Lord Flashheart

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:46 AM

I wouldn't have thought anything of it if Kraft hadn't been out there giving this holier than thou routine, acting like he, a billionaire businessman, was bamboozled by a common street thug. If you can't own up to the truth of overlooking his character because he was really good, than just shut up about it. I just hate it when people outright lie to CTA.


Have you ever seen Robert Kraft in his luxury box during the games? He looks drunker than any fan in the stadium, substance abuse shouldn't be on his list of things to talk about. Hernandez is a whole different issue. You can't blame the team for the actions of every single one of their players.

#7 sperry

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:51 AM

Have you ever seen Robert Kraft in his luxury box during the games? He looks drunker than any fan in the stadium, substance abuse shouldn't be on his list of things to talk about. Hernandez is a whole different issue. You can't blame the team for the actions of every single one of their players.



I don't blame them for his actions. I don't even blame them for taking a risk on him. I just don't ilke the public backtracking and pretending that they didn't know he was a scumbag. Obviously they didn't know he was a homicidal maniac, but they knew he was not a quality individual, and they were perfectly content with that so long as he caught passes. Again, don't have a problem with it, just don't like the lying about it.

#8 DanteGabriel

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:22 PM

I don't blame them for his actions. I don't even blame them for taking a risk on him. I just don't ilke the public backtracking and pretending that they didn't know he was a scumbag. Obviously they didn't know he was a homicidal maniac, but they knew he was not a quality individual, and they were perfectly content with that so long as he caught passes. Again, don't have a problem with it, just don't like the lying about it.

I wouldn't have thought anything of it if Kraft hadn't been out there giving this holier than thou routine, acting like he, a billionaire businessman, was bamboozled by a common street thug. If you can't own up to the truth of overlooking his character because he was really good, than just shut up about it. I just hate it when people outright lie to CTA.

I don't know how the Patriots could have known that Hernandez would be capable of cold-blooded (if extremely stupid) murder. Maybe they could have known -- I legitimately don't.

But it's clear to me that you are so intent to blame the Patriots -- and Robert Kraft in particular, it seems -- for failing to read into the depths of Hernandez's soul. The complaint about Kraft in particular is nonsensical. Is he personally vetting these guys? The owner is supposed to be the gatekeeper on all risky personnel decisions?

I don't think it had anything to do with rehabilitating criminals, but I definitely do think that Coach B took the approach of taking guys who are high risk, including guys with character concerns/criminal history. The thinking was (presumably) that the Patriot Way of working hard, providing structure and showing everyone the right path would help them to avoid getting into trouble. This kind of leadership can work for some troubled young men, but it is never going to work for everybody. And given the recent failures, I think it calls into question whether or not the Patriots are really providing any better organizational support than any other NFL team.

Well, no, I wouldn't have said the Pats were better at providing organizational support. I don't know how much any NFL team can do to stop players from being idiots, unless they're going to assign security staff to follow them around in their off hours. The best you can do is try to teach them and give them tools -- like the ride service that's supposed to ensure players don't get behind the wheel drunk. But in the end, these are grown-ass men who've been trained to aggression and accustomed to privilege most of their lives, if they're determined to do stupid shit, I don't know how much any team can do about it.

I do want Belichick to take a moratorium on character risks for a while.

#9 Jaime L

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:30 PM

To play devil's advocate, if you evaluate the process of drafting Aaron Hernandez (and other character risk guys) and not just the result, I think you can make a strong case the process worked. Aaron Hernandez was an outstanding draft pick - I can probably count on one hand the number of fourth rounders who've been bigger difference makers. Even if they only got 3 years out of him, it was at a difference making level and most 4th rounders don't provide anything close to. And if the Patriots win a Superbowl between 2010-2012, and they easily could've, the gambit pays off in spades. It blew up a bit in their face with the guaranteed money they ended up giving him, but drafting a red flag guy like Aaron Hernandez was an organizational "win", especially for an organization who was right there and needed only one or two difference makers to get over the top and win a Superbowl.

They had no idea they were drafting a potential murderer - they probably assumed worst case scenario they were getting another Albert Haynesworth type of bad dude. Just happened to be in the path of the whirlwind with this one...but if they could look at it coldly and dispassionately in a vacuum (which obviously they can't) and they came to the conclusion this was a 1 in a 1,000 bit of horrendous luck and that the process made them a better team than they would've been if they only drafted choir boys, I'm not sure I can disagree.

They've just hit up against what the Bengals did 5-6 years ago where they reach a critical mass of red flag guys blowing up in their face and bringing down intense national scrutiny that they had to change their approach because the distraction was too great.

But the Cowboys won three superbowls with a similar cost/benefit analysis when it comes to "red flag" guys and the Rams are attemping to now. The Steelers won two Superbowls led by a probable rapist, the Ravens won two with a possible murderer...this is how the sausage gets made in the NFL (and the NBA, and in college football etc.). In the ceaseless pursuit of "value", character is just another thing being put on the evaluation table along with 40 times and height and athleticism and college stats and everyone's got a different calculus of what they're willign to overlook to find that guy that gives them that critical edge over everyone else whose 4th rounders never played a down in the league.

Edited by Jaime L, 11 July 2013 - 12:38 PM.


#10 sperry

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:02 PM

I don't know how the Patriots could have known that Hernandez would be capable of cold-blooded (if extremely stupid) murder. Maybe they could have known -- I legitimately don't.

But it's clear to me that you are so intent to blame the Patriots -- and Robert Kraft in particular, it seems -- for failing to read into the depths of Hernandez's soul. The complaint about Kraft in particular is nonsensical. Is he personally vetting these guys? The owner is supposed to be the gatekeeper on all risky personnel decisions?


Well, no, I wouldn't have said the Pats were better at providing organizational support. I don't know how much any NFL team can do to stop players from being idiots, unless they're going to assign security staff to follow them around in their off hours. The best you can do is try to teach them and give them tools -- like the ride service that's supposed to ensure players don't get behind the wheel drunk. But in the end, these are grown-ass men who've been trained to aggression and accustomed to privilege most of their lives, if they're determined to do stupid shit, I don't know how much any team can do about it.

I do want Belichick to take a moratorium on character risks for a while.



As I said in the post you quoted, of course the Patriots didn't know Hernandez was capable of murder. Again as I said several times in my posts that you quoted, I don't care that they took a risk that a guy they knew was a thug would keep his nose clean enough to be able to stay on the field. What I don't like is that Kraft pretending it was anything other than that. This Patriot way nonsense may be a creation of the media, in which case that's their fault. It's just the holier than thou stuff really grinds my gears, and even moreso when it's all bogus.


As for the patriots, I have no problem with them. Hard to root for anyone with Tebow on the roster (another holier than thou guy), but I still like them.

#11 Independent George

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:38 PM

I don't ever recall seeing anything resembling a holier-than-thou attitude coming from the Pats organization. I think that's the sort of thing that exists entirely in the fan's eye.

#12 DanteGabriel

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:59 PM

I don't ever recall seeing anything resembling a holier-than-thou attitude coming from the Pats organization. I think that's the sort of thing that exists entirely in the fan's eye.

I don't understand the animus toward Kraft, who's probably one of the least objectionable billionaires I know of. At least he build Gillette with his own funds instead of fleecing the public for it.

#13 sperry

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 02:15 PM

I certainly could be wrong in my assessment. Wouldn't be the first time.

#14 Rhom

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:50 PM

Considering the topic title, I found this article on Deadspin that just came across my Facebook feed to be pretty interesting.

It shows that NFL players do have a higher arrest rate than the population in general (except on drug charges), but that when compared with US Adult Male arrest rate it is actually lower. The only category they seem to have a higher arrest rate are weapons related crimes.

I hesitate to even ask this question... but it is a fact that the arrest rate amongst black men in the US is higher than the all male average. I would be interested in seeing a comparison chart of black NFL athletes compared to the national average for their peer group. My bet is that the NFL athletes are significantly less likely to be arrested than national average for their racial demographic.

#15 Lord Flashheart

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:23 PM

Fantasy football questions ok in here? Posted in the futbol thread on accident last time. I am in a dynasty league with 12 teams and 10 keepers per team. I have the first 9 that I am pretty solid on but can't decide on weather to keep the Texans D or Greg Jennings. WR can score big points with the scoring style, but Christan Ponder scares me. Advice?

#16 Jabronius Maximus

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:30 PM

Fantasy football questions ok in here? Posted in the futbol thread on accident last time. I am in a dynasty league with 12 teams and 10 keepers per team. I have the first 9 that I am pretty solid on but can't decide on weather to keep the Texans D or Greg Jennings. WR can score big points with the scoring style, but Christan Ponder scares me. Advice?


For Minny, it'll be Adrian Peterson up the middle, on the outside, in the secondary, and under center. I'd stay away from Jennings, and the Texans D has been fantasy gold recently. Go with them.

Edit: there's also an active fantasy football thread in this subforum

http://asoiaf.wester...n-version-2013/

Edited by Barristan the Boss, 11 July 2013 - 10:35 PM.


#17 Howdyphillip

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 01:18 AM

Fantasy football really should go to forum games...

#18 Pony Queen Jace

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:20 AM

It's July 12th. Ladies and gentlemen, kickoff is a mere 2 months away.

#19 Mexal

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:26 AM

It's July 12th. Ladies and gentlemen, kickoff is a mere 2 months away.


And training camp starts in 2 weeks. I cannot wait, especially for Hard Knocks. The Bengals might not have compelling personalities but they sure as hell have a lot of young talent to watch. I'm pumped.

#20 awesome possum

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:32 AM

I don't understand the animus toward Kraft, who's probably one of the least objectionable billionaires I know of. At least he build Gillette with his own funds instead of fleecing the public for it.


Yeah, for my money at least, while the Patriots as a team were very hate-worthy due to Belichick and Brady, there was always the underlying respect because Kraft at least appears to be a decent fellow for a billionaire.