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Elia of Dorne: Princess, Sister, Wife, and Mother


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#1 Lala

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 01:30 PM

Inspired by the heated discussion I am having with other posters on another thread about Princess Elia of Dorne and our differing views on who she was as a person.

As the debate forced me to go back to the books and do more research, I found myself being more intrigued by Elia as a person, and my mental picture of her became much more complex and nuanced than before (I admit I was slightly dismissive of her, for which I apologize!) If possible, I want this thread to be an exploration of her character based on the limited information we are provided with in the series.

We never meet Elia as a character, since she is dead by the time ASoIaF begins, but we gradually learn about her through the recollections of other characters. In this respect she is extremely similar to Lyanna Stark, making the two characters interesting contrasts and parallels to each other.

A Game of Thrones

We first learn about Elia through Daenerys, as she imagines the fall of the Targaryen dynasty:

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King’s Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper’s dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father’s throat with a golden sword.


This seems to be the most prevalent and consistent portrait of Elia that the characters of ASoIaF carry with them - Elia as a mother and victim, begging for mercy as her children are "murdered before her eyes." In a sense, this is the ghost of Elia - she haunts her brothers and Dorne in their quest to avenge her, she haunts the reputations of Gregor and the Lannisters, she haunts the righteousness of Robert's Rebellion, and she haunts the relationship between Ned and Robert. Despite everything Tywin and the Lannisters go on to do during the War of 5 Kings, it is Elia who remains the poster child of Lannister savagery. Yet, this tells us very little about Elia during her lifetime - what kind of woman was she? what kind of mother? wife? sister? There is a certain tragedy to this - the savagery of her death seems to overshadow the entirety of her life.

Perhaps the second most prevalent image of Elia is her presence at the tourney where Rhaegar crowns Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty. This event is first recalled by Ned in a dream:

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.


Ser Barristan also recalls this scene in his POVs in A Dance with Dragons:

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different
choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had
she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young
maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish

princess was a kitchen drab.


The initial impressions of Elia that this scene gives are that (1) she was not exceptionally beautiful; (2) her marriage was not extremely happy - or at least, her husband did not love her. However, from Ser Barristan's recollections we also learn that Elia "was good and gentle." Is there more concrete proof of this aspect of Elia's personality? A quick reread shows that this is indeed the case.

Elia is not mentioned again in the series until the third book, A Storm of Swords.

A Storm of Swords

In A Storm of Swords, readers meet Oberyn Martell, Elia's brother, when he arrives at KL in order to take the Dornish seat on the small council. Through Oberyn's conversations with Tyrion, we see Elia brought to life for the first time as more than Prince Rhaegar's not-so-beloved wife and the ghost of Lannister cruelty.

During their conversation, Oberyn recalls a childhood visit to Casterly Rock, shortly after Tyrion's birth.

“Oh, many and many a year ago, when my mother ruled in Dorne and your lord father was Hand to a different king.”
Not so different as you might think, reflected Tyrion.
“It was when I visited Casterly Rock with my mother, her consort, and my sister Elia. I was, oh, fourteen, fifteen, thereabouts, Elia a year older. Your brother and sister were eight or nine, as I recall, and you had just been born.”


At Elia's request, the Dornish siblings are taken to see Tyrion by Cersei.

“Cersei even undid your swaddling clothes to give us a better look,” the Dornish prince continued. “You did have one evil eye, and some black fuzz on your scalp. Perhaps your head was larger than most... but there was no tail, no beard, neither teeth nor claws, and nothing between your legs but a tiny pink cock. After all the wonderful whispers, Lord Tywin’s Doom turned out to be just a hideous red infant with stunted legs. Elia even made the noise that young girls make at the sight of infants, I’m sure you’ve heard it. The same noise they make over cute kittens and playful puppies. I believe she wanted to nurse you herself, ugly as you were. "


This is the point at which Ser Barristan's description of Elia as "good and gentle" is brought to life for the reader. While Tyrion is reviled for his twisted appearance and named "Lord Tywin's Doom" by even the adults around him, sixteen year old Elia, when she sees him, reacts maternally as opposed to with disgust. The fact that she is able to overlook Tyrion's physical deformity and instinctively react to him as she would to any other infant speaks volumes towards her personality. (As opposed to Cersei, who tries to remove her little brother's male parts)

Through Oberyn, we also learn that Elia was very close with her brothers and had a sense of humor.


“Justice.” Yes, that is why he’s here, I should have seen that at once. “You were close to your sister?”
“As children Elia and I were inseparable, much like your own brother and sister.”


Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel. I preferred to amuse myself by mocking my sister’s suitors. There was Little Lord Lazyeye, Squire Squishlips, one I named the Whale That Walks, that sort of thing. The only one who was even halfway presentable was young Baelor Hightower. A pretty lad, and my sister was
half in love with him until he had the misfortune to fart once in our presence. I promptly named him Baelor Breakwind, and after that Elia couldn’t look at him without laughing. I was a monstrous young fellow, someone should have sliced out my vile tongue.


Elia's sense of humor and wit is confirmed by Ser Barristan in A Dance with Dragons:

The old knight hesitated. “Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever,with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her.”
Fond, thought Dany. The word spoke volumes. I could become fond of Hizdahr zo Loraq, in time.

Perhaps.


This description of Elia is perhaps the most apt one of her life in the traditional feminine roles of society - she was a gentle woman who inspired fondness, not passion. There is perhaps ironic in that, in the surviving men of her life, Doran and Oberyn, her death was what revealed the passionate love and devotion beneath the fondness.

It is perhaps also worthwhile to explore what Elia was not. This is juxtaposed very well by Ser Kevan at the end of A Dance with Dragons.

A Dance with Dragons

Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she’d flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deathsmight have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes
and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The
northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never
match the rising sun.
But it did no good to brood on lost battles and roads not taken. That was a vice of old done men.
Rhaegar had wed Elia of Dorne, Lyanna Stark had died, Robert Baratheon had taken Cersei to bride, and

here they were.


Ser Kevan indirectly juxtaposes Elia with Cersei, to Elia's disfavor, musing that if Rhaegar had married Cersei, he "might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark." Kevan describes Cersei as having a beauty as "the rising sun," but if we extrapolate that he is also subconsciously considering Cersei's personality, we can gain an idea of what Elia was not, by considering what Cersei is. In a sense, Cersei is like "the rising sun" in more ways than appearance - Ser Kevan reminisces that she was "full of life and mischief," which can be interpreted as a more flattering way of saying that Cersei was willful. We also know, from the series, that Cersei is ambitious, proud, and domineering, traits which can easily be associated with a rising sun as it drives the darkness away. In contrast, we can assume that these were not traits associated with Elia - indeed, none of the characters ever describe Elia as "willful" or "proud."

Yet, it is Elia, not Cersei who is the true sun, a daughter of Dorne. But, further thought shows that, perhaps, Elia embodies the sigil of her house much more aptly than Cersei can ever hope to. While the sun can be fierce and blinding, it is also constant and warm, giving light and warmth to everything irregardless of appearance and origin. In this respect, Elia is much more similar to a sun than Cersei - her ability to smile and be affectionate towards infant Tyrion despite his deformity gives evidence of this.

Final thought: there is a certain similarity between Elia and Ellaria - both are essentially maternal figures first and foremost - and I think there are more clues to be found about Elia as a person in an examination of Ellaria, whom we do meet and are able to observe. It would make sense that Oberyn would be drawn to a woman who closely resembled his beloved sister.

Since a lot of the passages on Elia are slightly repetitive (I want to say at least 80% of the non-Oberyn passages are about her death at the hands of the Lannisters/Gregor while another 15% are about Lyanna being crowned Queen of Love and Beauty), I did not include a good number of them. If anyone finds a passage I missed that gives good insight to her character please share it with us!

/edit/ accidentally wrote The Hound instead of Gregor at one point - sorry! Edited to clear the name of Sansa's beloved I-am-no-ser

Edited by Lala, 14 July 2013 - 01:57 PM.


#2 mighty potato

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 01:38 PM

i really like this thread and i appreciate the effort that you put into it, i'm really enjoying this, great job

i'm trying to reform a fresh view of princess Elia, so i'll get back to you on that one

#3 ~Red~Viper~

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 01:50 PM

Great post! I think all agree, that she was a good hearted woman. Although, maybe not as beautiful as Lyanna or Cersei as the text implies, she is good natured and loving, and that can be more important, at the end of the day.

I like the comparison you made between her and Ellaria, it makes sense in a way, and both seemed to put the needs of their children before their own. The way you worded how Elia embodies the sigil of her house was nicely written, and I guess, I'd never really thought about it like that.

What happened to her was one of the most tragic things in the entire series, and that's all I'm gonna say about that.

ETA: Really enjoyed the read.

Edited by ~Red~Viper~, 14 July 2013 - 01:52 PM.


#4 protar

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 01:59 PM

One passage you have missed is Dany's vision in the HOTU, where Rhaegar tells a nursing woman - presumably Elia - that his (the baby) is the Song of Ice and Fire. This to me suggests that Elia may have been in on Rhaegar's eloping with Lyanna, and may be a lot shrewder and more politically minded then she seems at first glance.

#5 Lissa Nymeros Martell

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:00 PM

I just realized how much Elia of Dorne reminds me of Henry the VIII's first wife, Catherine of Aragon.

If you cast, Rhaegar as Henry VIII - the heir seeking husband.

Elia as Catherine - raise almost from birth to be queen, first female ambassador of spain, an educated and capable woman that is largely remembered for getting cast aside by the king for someone younger.

Lyanna as Anne Boylen - the mistress. There are so many other words that could be used to describe her role, pawn, true love, temptress but mistress seems most unbiased.

I wonder if Elia is similar to Catherine. A great person whose "reputation" doesn't describe "her".

I think there's much more to these "princesses of dorne" than we're lead to believe. I hope we get the full story of them eventually.

#6 Lissa Nymeros Martell

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:02 PM

One passage you have missed is Dany's vision in the HOTU, where Rhaegar tells a nursing woman - presumably Elia - that his (the baby) is the Song of Ice and Fire. This to me suggests that Elia may have been in on Rhaegar's eloping with Lyanna, and may be a lot shrewder and more politically minded then she seems at first glance.


I agree!

Alternatively Dany may have been seeing Rhaegar with Lyanna and not Elia.

#7 Lala

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:07 PM

One passage you have missed is Dany's vision in the HOTU, where Rhaegar tells a nursing woman - presumably Elia - that his (the baby) is the Song of Ice and Fire. This to me suggests that Elia may have been in on Rhaegar's eloping with Lyanna, and may be a lot shrewder and more politically minded then she seems at first glance.


Oh right! It was in the back of my mind while I was writing but I forgot about it completely. I have to admit I was a bit lazy and found the passages by searching "Elia" in the ebooks, which explains why that passage slipped through. Thank you for pointing it out!

A Clash of Kings

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”
“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.


Interestingly enough, if I'm not mistaken, this is Elia's only appearance in ACoK. For me, this passage also reveals more about Rhaegar and Elia's marriage perhaps - while Rhaegar never appears to love his wife, he does seem to respect her, or he would've never told her about the "song of ice and fire" and "the dragon having three heads." We all know that Rhaegar was highly intelligent and well-read, so his respect for Elia would be a nod at her own intellect and understanding.

#8 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:08 PM

I agree!

Alternatively Dany may have been seeing Rhaegar with Lyanna and not Elia.


Rhaegar died before Lyanna gave birth.

#9 Lala

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:08 PM

I agree!

Alternatively Dany may have been seeing Rhaegar with Lyanna and not Elia.


What makes me believe that the woman is Elia and not Lyanna is Rhaegar's statement about the dragon having three heads and that "there must be one more." At this point we know that Elia and Rhaegar have two children, which would explain Rhaegar's comment about needing "one more." If it were Lyanna, the comment would no longer make sense.

Rhaegar died before Lyanna gave birth.


Also true~ and ninja'd

Edited by Lala, 14 July 2013 - 02:09 PM.


#10 Lissa Nymeros Martell

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:13 PM

Rhaegar died before Lyanna gave birth.


Right! Forgot about that.

#11 RhaenysBalerion

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:19 PM

A beautiful collection of Elia quotes. Thank you this awesome post /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Random thoughts:
- One thing I don't agree with. The queen of love and beauty quotes do not indicate to me that Elia's marriage was not very happy. I don't say it indicates it was happy, obviously not. But I just can squeeze out anything from these quotes which would suggest me that Rhaegar rode past Elia, because their marriage was unhappy. The fact that Lyanna was more beautiful (and healthier and younger) that Elia obviously affected Rhaegar falling for her. But all the description of Elia (gentle woman, good woman, Rhaegar was fond of her) don't really give me the idea that their marriage was seventh hell and Rhaegar was running away from her.
- The parallel with Ellaria Sand is quite likable.
- Rhaegar being fond of her is not ironic at all, in my opinion. It just makes me think their marriage was something like a friendship with mutual fondness and respect and honesty (I am pretty sure that Elia knew Rhaegar would go off with Lyanna and please don't jump at my throat yelling that respect doesn't equal running off with a fifteen year old). I think all it means is that Rhaegar was never in love with Elia, but he appreciated, respected and held her dear both as a companion and both as the mother of his children.
- Whoever claims that Elia was a proud noble woman who would fight for the succession of her own children (and hate Jon - Rhaegar better father as Ned to Jon or not thread) is stupid. Every second mention of her points out that she was a good, gentle, kind woman. Not an emancipated, arrogant shithead like Cersei or a hips-size obsessed, proud Catelyn.

I have always pictured Elia a kind, understanding woman, who found something to love in everybody.

This is not really related to Elia, but it may have something to do with Rhaegar's "fondness" for her. In one of Jaime's feverish nightmares, he sees a sad Rhaegar who says (a bit of accusingly and disappointedly) to him, that he had left his wife and children in his (Jaime's) care.... Which also indicates me that Rhaegar did care about Elia and they did have a good relationship for a marriage without love.

#12 PrimeRhaegar

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:23 PM

You forgot the house of undying passage with her and rhaegar also showing a tender moment. This is the husband that shamed her a few months back and yet she was still so opening and caring with him.

I always liked elia, i mean rhaegar was fond of her come on that speaks volumes about her with the melancholic rhaegar actually being fond of someone since he didn't talk to kids and had like atleast 2 close friends (jon con and arthur dayne one can stretch it to myles mooton as well). Shows how her personality captures people. Hell the archer in the nights watch who was apart of the Kingswoods Brotherhood talks about stealing a kiss from the dornish princess (elia) as one of his finest achievements.

I would also include jon con jealousy of her to show how close she was to rhaegar as well. weird how lyanna died giving birth to one child (if R+L=J is true) yet elia survives 2 births with a rep of being ill.

Edited by PrimeRhaegar, 14 July 2013 - 02:27 PM.


#13 Howling Mad

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:25 PM

Interesting post, I admit I have not spent much time studying Elia or the whole PTWP storyline. Thanks for putting this together.

#14 Red.Queen

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:30 PM

Rhaegar died before Lyanna gave birth.


That's right. Also he calls the baby Aegon, so clearly the woman had to be Elia. And GRRM confirmed that it was indeed Elia.

#15 Lala

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:38 PM

A beautiful collection of Elia quotes. Thank you this awesome post /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Random thoughts:
- One thing I don't agree with. The queen of love and beauty quotes do not indicate to me that Elia's marriage was not very happy. I don't say it indicates it was happy, obviously not. But I just can squeeze out anything from these quotes which would suggest me that Rhaegar rode past Elia, because their marriage was unhappy. The fact that Lyanna was more beautiful (and healthier and younger) that Elia obviously affected Rhaegar falling for her. But all the description of Elia (gentle woman, good woman, Rhaegar was fond of her) don't really give me the idea that their marriage was seventh hell and Rhaegar was running away from her.
- The parallel with Ellaria Sand is quite likable.
- Rhaegar being fond of her is not ironic at all, in my opinion. It just makes me think their marriage was something like a friendship with mutual fondness and respect and honesty (I am pretty sure that Elia knew Rhaegar would go off with Lyanna and please don't jump at my throat yelling that respect doesn't equal running off with a fifteen year old). I think all it means is that Rhaegar was never in love with Elia, but he appreciated, respected and held her dear both as a companion and both as the mother of his children.
- Whoever claims that Elia was a proud noble woman who would fight for the succession of her own children (and hate Jon - Rhaegar better father as Ned to Jon or not thread) is stupid. Every second mention of her points out that she was a good, gentle, kind woman. Not an emancipated, arrogant shithead like Cersei or a hips-size obsessed, proud Catelyn.

I have always pictured Elia a kind, understanding woman, who found something to love in everybody.

This is not really related to Elia, but it may have something to do with Rhaegar's "fondness" for her. In one of Jaime's feverish nightmares, he sees a sad Rhaegar who says (a bit of accusingly and disappointedly) to him, that he had left his wife and children in his (Jaime's) care.... Which also indicates me that Rhaegar did care about Elia and they did have a good relationship for a marriage without love.


I was definitely too hasty to describe Elia's marriage as "unhappy" and I apologize for that! The point about Jaime's dream is very interesting - I'll have to go back and try to find the text. And I wholeheartedly agree that Elia was a woman who could find something to love about everybody! It is what makes it doubly sad that most of the characters (except Oberyn and Barristan) appear to remember very little about her beyond her ill health, Lyanna/Rhaegar, and her tragic death.

You forgot the house of undying passage with her and rhaegar also showing a tender moment. This is the husband that shamed her a few months back and yet she was still so opening and caring with him.

I always liked elia, i mean rhaegar was fond of her come on that speaks volumes about her with the melancholic rhaegar actually being fond of someone since he didn't talk to kids and had like atleast 2 close friends (jon con and arthur dayne one can stretch it to myles mooton as well). Shows how her personality captures people. Hell the archer in the nights watch who was apart of the Kingswoods Brotherhood talks about stealing a kiss from the dornish princess (elia) as one of his finest achievements.

I would also include jon con jealousy of her to show how close she was to rhaegar as well. weird how lyanna died giving birth to one child (if R+L=J is true) yet elia survives 2 births with a rep of being ill.


Could you point me towards that quote about the kiss please? I would love to be able to get my hands on reread it.

Interesting post, I admit I have not spent much time studying Elia or the whole PTWP storyline. Thanks for putting this together.


Thank you~ I'm so happy that this thread has helped others examine Elia more closely, since I really enjoyed writing it and learning more about this amazing woman!

#16 Lord Godric

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:51 PM

This is a really great collection of quotes on Elia, I would love to see more posts like these on different lesser studied characters because it brought Elia to life in a way I hadn't really thought of before.

One thing to note that is interesting, and this isn't a passage about Elia but about Rhaegar is that Dany reflects on Rhaegar dying "for the woman he loved." This small quote shows many different things, primarily that Dany seems to know about Rhaegar's love for Lyanna but also it suggests that Rhaegar did not love Elia.

And I think you did a good job showing other quotes about that as well, particularly the "fond of" quotes. I don't think this means that their marriage was unhappy, but it definitely was not one built on love, his relationship with Lyanna filled that roll.

#17 RhaenysBalerion

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:52 PM

rely on it, this will happen sooner or later.


Oh, trust me, I do, experience has taught that to me. It was just a meek attempt to evade the inevitable /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

I was definitely too hasty to describe Elia's marriage as "unhappy" and I apologize for that! The point about Jaime's dream is very interesting - I'll have to go back and try to find the text. And I wholeheartedly agree that Elia was a woman who could find something to love about everybody! It is what makes it doubly sad that most of the characters (except Oberyn and Barristan) appear to remember very little about her beyond her ill health, Lyanna/Rhaegar, and her tragic death.


Oh, don't apologize, it's just all right. I just have this cherished idea that Rhaegar and Elia were good friends and mutually fond of each other and I always like to defend the characters I ship :DD
I agree with you on Elia totally.
As for that Jaime nightmare, if you search for Rhaegar on Wiki of Ice and Fire, it'll give out the quote. That's where I came across it the other day.

#18 ~Red~Viper~

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 04:15 PM

I think someone mentioned it above, but in JonCon's POV in ADWD, he thinks back about Elia saying that she wasn't worthy of Rhaegar, but we all know why JC was so jealous. And of course it's mentioned a few times that she had delicate health, and she was bed ridden for about 6 months after the birth of their 2nd child. It was said that having another child after that was likely to kill her.

So with all this in mind, it maybe isn't to far fetched to think that she knew about the prophecy, and didn't take the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna thing personally. As the Dragon needed 3 heads.

#19 Pikachu101

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 04:44 PM

So with all this in mind, it maybe isn't to far fetched to think that she knew about the prophecy, and didn't take the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna thing personally. As the Dragon needed 3 heads.


Am I the only one who thinks she'd take one look at Lyanna and Jon and see a threat to Aegon? /dunno.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunno:' /> That's a lot less far fetched considering the fact Jon would have the North, Vale and Riverlands behind him if he tries to take the throne.

I'm also hoping she didn't believe in the "dragon needs three heads" rubbish /dry.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='<_<' /> it's bad enough a grown man believes such folly

Edited by Pikachu101, 14 July 2013 - 04:44 PM.


#20 Kuther2000

Kuther2000

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 05:17 PM

Am I the only one who thinks she'd take one look at Lyanna and Jon and see a threat to Aegon? /dunno.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunno:' /> That's a lot less far fetched considering the fact Jon would have the North, Vale and Riverlands behind him if he tries to take the throne.

I'm also hoping she didn't believe in the "dragon needs three heads" rubbish /dry.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='<_<' /> it's bad enough a grown man believes such folly


No you aren't I do too. Maybe she wouldn't actively hate Jon, but I don't see her just likely his presence that much.

Edited by Kuther2000, 14 July 2013 - 05:18 PM.