Elia of Dorne: Princess, Sister, Wife, and Mother

[Steinnis]

Am I the only one who thinks she'd take one look at Lyanna and Jon and see a threat to Aegon? :dunno: That's a lot less far fetched considering the fact Jon would have the North, Vale and Riverlands behind him if he tries to take the throne.

I'm also hoping she didn't believe in the "dragon needs three heads" rubbish <_< it's bad enough a grown man believes such folly

Aegon still would've been the heir, though. Considering Jon was born after, and to a different woman. Plus Lyanna and Rhaegar might not have even been married. But, yeah I'm sure she considered that.

I'm not a big fan of all the prophecies myself, I do go along with them occassionally.

[Kuther2000]

Aegon still would've been the heir, though. Considering Jon was born after, and to a different woman. Plus Lyanna and Rhaegar might not have even been married. But, yeah I'm sure she considered that.

I'm not a big fan of all the prophecies myself, I do go along with them occassionally.

Even though Aegon would be heir, Jon would have the Vale, Riverlands, and the North behind him in the event that he wanted to press his claim. You could also throw in the Tyrells because they have a long term animosity with the Dornish. Jon could say that because Lyanna was his true love and the wife that he chose. Rhaegar wanted him to be King. Aegon would just have the Dornish and maybe the Baratheons if Robert's wounds are still sore over Rhaegar stealing his betrothed and he is willing to give up his friendship with Ned to get revenge of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Or he would probably stay neutral. The Lannisters either would stay neutral or choose the winning house which would probably be Jon because of his animosity with the Dornish.

I am not a big fan of these prophecies. I actually think it would be more interesting if it was found out that the major prophecies are all fakes and people have been trying to recreate them even though they aren't real. It would show how these obsessive tendencies can be the downfall of great people.

[Kuther2000]

I am of the opinion. That everything would not have worked out in however Rhaegar wanted it too even if he was able to do what he wanted.

His plan whatever it was could have been better. He obviously had a long time to plan it out. Why did he need to run off? If my look at dates and ages, the age of majority isn't until 16 and the marriage between Catelyn and Brandon wasn't going to happen until she was 17. Which makes me think it would have been the same for Lyanna. Lyanna was at least 15 when she ran off.

They could have obviously married in secret without the running off and had their quiet rendezvous until Lyanna got pregnant. Since everyone talks about how strong she is, it wouldn't have taken long. During this time, Rhaegar can also be planning and putting in place his coup of Aerys. After the coup is successful which with the charming Rhaegar at the head wouldn't be long, he can come out and say that him and Lyanna have gotten married and everyone just has to accept it.

Truthfully, Rhaegar may have actually married Lyanna, but that won't have much bearing on the situation at hand. They may just accept it and not ask questions because all the participants are dead. It would have been a totally different case if everyone was alive when it came out because there would be people able to contest it.

I am not one to label good and gentle people submissve and weak and that she is a doormat who is willing to take every piece of crap that gets thrown at her. For all we know, Elia may have been a much better person than Lyanna. I think she would have been a terrific Queen. The graceful, beautiful strong Lyanna was failed by what most people say is childbirth and her actions took some of the realm to the grave with her.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Am I the only one who thinks she'd take one look at Lyanna and Jon and see a threat to Aegon? :dunno: That's a lot less far fetched considering the fact Jon would have the North, Vale and Riverlands behind him if he tries to take the throne.

I'm also hoping she didn't believe in the "dragon needs three heads" rubbish <_< it's bad enough a grown man believes such folly

RE: Threat to Aegon. Yes and no. Jon would have been a bastard (if R+L did not marry) at worst and a second son (if they did marry) at best. Elia wouldn't have known anything/much about Jon. But if we assume that she was not in on Rhaegar nailing Lyanna that she really couldn't have done much. I doubt Elia would have had a child killed without a more credible threat than his birth. She isn't Cersi.

How she felt about the matter may or may not have made much of a difference. Say Rhaegar slept around a lot in general? What could/would she actually do? She could hold a grudge about it like Cersi or she could handle it with grace and maturity like a future queen would.

I'm also hoping she didn't believe in the "dragon needs three heads" rubbish <_< it's bad enough a grown man believes such folly

In a world with dragons, white walkers, and magic... believing in a prophecy isn't that foolish.

[Lala]

Oh, trust me, I do, experience has taught that to me. It was just a meek attempt to evade the inevitable :D

Oh, don't apologize, it's just all right. I just have this cherished idea that Rhaegar and Elia were good friends and mutually fond of each other and I always like to defend the characters I ship :DD

I agree with you on Elia totally.

As for that Jaime nightmare, if you search for Rhaegar on Wiki of Ice and Fire, it'll give out the quote. That's where I came across it the other day.

I can't help thinking she would have made such a wonderful Queen.

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them,

crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

...

“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king...

found it!

I think someone mentioned it above, but in JonCon's POV in ADWD, he thinks back about Elia saying that she wasn't worthy of Rhaegar, but we all know why JC was so jealous. And of course it's mentioned a few times that she had delicate health, and she was bed ridden for about 6 months after the birth of their 2nd child. It was said that having another child after that was likely to kill her.

So with all this in mind, it maybe isn't to far fetched to think that she knew about the prophecy, and didn't take the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna thing personally. As the Dragon needed 3 heads.

There's very little indication on whether or not Elia took the prophecy as seriously as Rhaegar did, but based on what I've learned about Elia, I don't think it would be a stretch to believe that she would have forgiven Rhaegar, even if the hurt would definitely still have been there.

Am I the only one who thinks she'd take one look at Lyanna and Jon and see a threat to Aegon? :dunno: That's a lot less far fetched considering the fact Jon would have the North, Vale and Riverlands behind him if he tries to take the throne.

I'm also hoping she didn't believe in the "dragon needs three heads" rubbish <_< it's bad enough a grown man believes such folly

Given that Lyanna dies in childbed, assuming Rhaegar returns with a motherless Jon to Elia, I think her first instinct (based on what the text tells us about her) would have been to feel empathy towards the motherless child as opposed to seeing him as a threat to her own children. My impression of Elia is that she is primarily a mother by nature, instinctively led to care for and nurture others - I can honestly envision her adopting and loving Jon as her own, even if the reminder of Lyanna would always pain her. I don't particularly see this as Elia being "weak" - she's less "steely" than Cat or Cersei, for sure, but there are many different kinds of strength - the strength of sunlight, for example, which overcomes through its constancy and warmth, not any form of hardness or unyielding nature.

Rather I would argue that it takes a certain measure of strength to be able to love Jon. In the words of Gandhi: "The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong." It isn't unbelievable that Elia would have been concerned for her children as well, but based on what we know of her character, I highly doubt jealousy, anger, or fear for her children would have been her primary emotion upon seeing a motherless child.

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

In a world with dragons, white walkers, and magic... believing in a prophecy isn't that foolish.

Thank you for bringing some sense back into this thread. :)

Hey Picachu, have you failed to notice that, less than two decades after Rhaegar's death, there is a pending zombie apocalypse on the horizon? Coincidence?

[TalalOfDorne]

Princess Elia Martell is one of my favorite characters in the series and probably my favorite pre-AGOT character. We cant really judge any character and know what they are like unless we actually see them and the way they behave and react in a number of occasions. Since the information we have about Elia is limited (As is the case with a lot of Pre-ASOIAF characters), we will have to settle with the information we have that is given to us by other characters. I really hope we learn more about her in the next books though.

We are told about Elia from the perspective of a number of characters. The main events or circumstances that most characters associate Elia with are two: Her death, along with her children, by the hands of Lannister men in the Sack of Kings Landing, and how Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna over her as the Queen of Love And Beauty. Though we are told more about her from Oberyn, but he is probably the only one who actually mentioned her in other events that were unassociated with the two mentioned above. If I recall correctly, we dont even see Jaime and Cersei remembering their visit to Casterly Rock (This is often used as evidence to doubt the truthfulness of Oberyns story) .

It really bothers me that to the Westerosi, Elia Martells is in the end: Either an example of one of the many Lannister atrocities, or a woman who wasnt good enough to satisfy her husband or curb his lust for other women. Its as if the reason for Elias existence is purely to be used as an instrument that shows us how much more beautiful other women (Cersei, Ashara, Lyanna) were, or how much of cruel monsters Lannisters are. Though the people of Westeros cant be really be completely blamed for remembering her this way. After all, its not their fault that Elia was associated with one event that is believed to have lead to rebellion and another event that has become part of Lannister history. Of course I definitely think she was a whole-lot more than that, and I really want to know everything about this great character.

Rhaegar and Elias marriage was often described as a loveless marriage. Yet from what we know that though loveless the marriage was, it didnt seem to lack any respect from both sides as we know from Ser Barristan that Rhaegar was fond of Elia. Is it safe to assume that Elia had shared the same fondness Rhaegar had for her? As sweet and gentle as she could be we have to remember that she may not have wanted to marry Rhaegar, or maybe she didnt want marriage at all. Of course this could be completely wrong. Maybe she DID love her husband with all her heart, and was probably discouraged of expressing it due to the fact that Rhaegar did not share her affections.

Whatever the relationship between the two was like, they did seem to love their children (Though Rhaegar gives me serious doubts about that since he ran off with Lyanna and left them). But I always ask myself that what if Rhaegar had his three kids with Elia? Would things have changed? Ned and Catelyn married for duty in the beginning, yet after fourteen years of marriage that duty turned it to real love that we see from both sides. Could Elia and Rhaegar possibly have gone the same way?

It is more than obvious that Elias brothers had loved her very much. One of them even died for her. Oberyn, who described his relationship with his sister as inseparable, tells us a story of him and Elia traveling with their mother, the ruling Princess of Dorne at the time. He tells us about their visit to Casterly Rock,. an infant Tyrion who was despised by members of his family and described as a devil and demon seemed to have no problem in winning the Princess' fascination. She didnt seem to care how "vile" or "demon-like" he was. It makes me think that she might not have judged people by their appearance, or maybe she just knew that no baby can be the way people described Tyrion. Either way, I think its one of her positive traits.

Then theres the hypothetical Jon situation. As Ive said, we are given the fact that we see her enjoy a child that has had vile rumors spread about him. However, Im not certain that this would be the same case with Jon. Yes, Jon was an innocent child, and I do think she would have felt pity for him. I still cant bring myself to say that she would have accepted him as one of the family (And rightfully so). He was the outcome of her husbands infidelity and is born of a highborn woman from a family that has connections with other powerful regions. I think Elia would be smart enough to see him as a threat. Would she despise the boy? I dont think so. Would she pull a Cersei? Definitely not. I do think however that she wont let him become part of her family. We have to remember that Elia had her own kids to watch out for, and she had no obligation to take care of a child that is thrown upon her.

In her eyes, her husband most likely committed a foolish decision that did not pass by without deadly repercussions to get that last child. One can easily argue that he would favor said child since he went through extraordinary lengths to have, unlike his arranged marriage which was practically thrown to him. We know for a fact that Dorne wasnt happy at all about what Rhaegar did to Elia, and this is without Jon coming into the picture. There is of course no reason why Elia wouldnt be upset by this as well.

We are always told that Elia was sweet and gentle but to what extent? She ,like most mothers, would do anything to protect her children. And I think the sweet and gentle Elia would have no problem in becoming vicious if it means protecting the ones she loves. If I recall correctly, it is mentioned that Elia Martell fought Gregor Clegane like a tigress. I think that proved that as gentle as she can be, she is willing to take down who ever endangers her. Which is why from what we know,I dont think I can ever describe her character as a passive or timid one.

Of course my opinions could change later as I go into more depth or rethink some information, and if we gain more information about her. But in general, I think Elia may have been a good person. She has that thing about that makes me prefer her over Lyanna. This is just my take on some of the aspects of one of ASOIAFs most intriguing and tragic characters. Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken.

[Lala]

~snip~

We are always told that Elia was sweet and gentle but to what extent? She ,like most mothers, would do anything to protect her children. And I think the sweet and gentle Elia would have no problem in becoming vicious if it means protecting the ones she loves. If I recall correctly, it is mentioned that Elia Martell fought Gregor Clegane like a tigress. I think that proved that as gentle as she can be, she is willing to take down who ever endangers her. Which is why from what we know,I dont think I can ever describe her character as a passive or timid one.

Of course my opinions could change later as I go into more depth or rethink some information, and if we gain more information about her. But in general, I think Elia may have been a good person. She has that thing about that makes me prefer her over Lyanna. This is just my take on some of the aspects of one of ASOIAFs most intriguing and tragic characters. Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken.

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you wrote - that scene with Tyrion is where Elia really stole my heart (and nearly brought tears to my eyes!) I think the key in the hypothetical Jon situation is that Elia would have pitied him. And, personally, I think that pity and compassion would have been her primary reaction, as opposed to the anger of Catelyn or disgust of Cersei. However I would argue that it is theoretically possible for her to have cared for infant Jon as her own (whether it is likely or not, I can't say). Just as it is possible for any family to love an adopted child (especially one adopted at infancy) as much as their biological children, I think a maternal person like Elia could have been able to love Jon as her own child. Like any wife and mother, I assume she would have preferred that Jon had been fostered elsewhere and at a distance, but I think that, if Rhaegar had insisted, Elia would have had the gentleness of spirit and greatness of heart to learn to love him, because she is, at heart, a mother.

I also prefer Elia over Lyanna, but it might be an unfair comparison, since Lyanna died a "woman-child" and Elia, at least, had time to mature into a full-grown woman with a beautiful heart. And definitely, definitely agree on how tragic it is that her life is overshadowed by her husband's infatuation with Lyanna and her tragic death - on my reread, it was almost as if except for Ser Barristan and Oberyn (Doran does not specifically reminisce about Elia aside from her birth, possibly because the memories are too painful), none of the characters remember the woman she was, only the husband she married and the tragedy she suffered.

[Minsc]

- Whoever claims that Elia was a proud noble woman who would fight for the succession of her own children (and hate Jon - Rhaegar better father as Ned to Jon or not thread) is stupid. Every second mention of her points out that she was a good, gentle, kind woman. Not an emancipated, arrogant shithead like Cersei or a hips-size obsessed, proud Catelyn.

She was a woman that was brutally raped and murdered only minutes after she saw her infant son brutally murdered, additionally she is mainly talked about from the POVs of her beloved brother and good-sister. Thus, it is hardly likely they are going to mention anything all that unflattering about her character.

[Lala]

She was a woman that was brutally raped and murdered only minutes after she saw her infant son brutally murdered, additionally she is mainly talked about from the POVs of beloved brother and good-sister. Thus, it is hardly likely they are going to mention anything all that unflattering about her character.

She is also referred to dismissively by JonCon who obviously did not like her, yet the worst he could come up with was that she was "frail and sickly."

A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well.

Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker.

After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s

birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince

Rhaegar afterward.

Elia obviously wasn't a paragon - in fact I would argue that her lack of Cat's "steel" is a flaw, simply a flaw that is also consistent with her character. But she does appear to have been a kind, gentle, loving person, a sister deserving of her brother's loyalty, a wife who can earn her husband's respect, a princess that the entire nation of Dorne mourned for, and a mother who fiercely loved her children (and exhibited a capacity to care for even the most superficially ugly baby we know of). This isn't a woman who would have been the target of accusations of arrogance or willful temperament or meanness of spirit, because those accusations would simply be inconsistent with who she is as a person.

In a sense, Elia and Cat are comparable in that they are both fundamentally good women - the worst accusation I can make towards Cat is that she did not treat Jon with kindness, which, though I will continue to criticize her for, I do not fault her for (if that distinction makes sense)

[NedStark'sHead]

I never really understood why everyone thought her weak and in an unhappy marriage. She seemed lovely from all the information about her, what a true queen should be. She turned an arranged marriage into a friendship with mutual respect. Sure her and Rhaegar weren't madly in love but as someone else mentioned, Ned and Cat weren't either. I wouldn't it put it past her to have been one the best queens of the Seven Kingdoms, I just wish we knew more about her!

I also think she would have raised Jon as her own if the events had led to that, she seems like a very sympathetic person with an open heart,

[winteristheseason]

Did Oberyn and Elia have a sexual relationship? just the bit where he says their relationship was a lot like jaime and cerseis, just got me thinking

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Did Oberyn and Elia have a sexual relationship? just the bit where he says their relationship was a lot like jaime and cerseis, just got me thinking

I've wondered about that. It seems possible but I'm trying not to project too much on Oberyn and Elia. Considering his... affection for his sister. I wonder how similar to Elia is Oberyn's paramour Ellaria.

[Kuther2000]

Did Oberyn and Elia have a sexual relationship? just the bit where he says their relationship was a lot like jaime and cerseis, just got me thinking

I've wondered about that. It seems possible but I'm trying not to project too much on Oberyn and Elia. Considering his... affection for his sister. I wonder how similar to Elia is Oberyn's paramour Ellaria.

No. He was Oberyn was just messing with Tyrion about the rumors of Jaime and Cersei. He just seems like that type of person.

They were just really close siblings. You also have to think the Tyrell and Stark siblings both past and current generation seem very close too. My belief is that it was Oberyn being Oberyn a cocky bastard.

[Ygrain]

I've wondered about that. It seems possible but I'm trying not to project too much on Oberyn and Elia. Considering his... affection for his sister. I wonder how similar to Elia is Oberyn's paramour Ellaria.

I've read that people we grow up with imprint on us and that we subconsciously seek partners who resemble them. I don't think that there was anything sexual in Oberyn's relationship to Elia, but with them being so close, he was able to appreciate her gentle nature and found the feature attractive in Ellaria.

[David Selig]

- Whoever claims that Elia was a proud noble woman who would fight for the succession of her own children (and hate Jon - Rhaegar better father as Ned to Jon or not thread) is stupid. Every second mention of her points out that she was a good, gentle, kind woman. Not an emancipated, arrogant shithead like Cersei or a hips-size obsessed, proud Catelyn.

Just because she was gentle and kind doesn't make her a doormat by default who would just accept what's considered a grave insult and disrespect in Westeros culture and the serious danger towards her kids Jon represents. Every high noble is proud, it goes with the territory.

[RhaenysBee]

Just because she was gentle and kind doesn't make her a doormat by default who would just accept what's considered a grave insult and disrespect in Westeros culture and the serious danger towards her kids Jon represents. Every high noble is proud, it goes with the territory.

Jon does not represent any danger to his son, as long as he lives (Elia's son, I mean), since whatever Jon does, Aegon is still first in line and Jon is a bastard. Same way Jon was never a threat to Robb Stark's succession as Lord of Winterfell, he would not be a threat to Aegon either. How Elia would react, I have no idea, but what we know of her, she would not be cruel or outcasting with Jon, if you ask me. (Even if you don't ask me, :"D)

She was a woman that was brutally raped and murdered only minutes after she saw her infant son brutally murdered, additionally she is mainly talked about from the POVs of her beloved brother and good-sister. Thus, it is hardly likely they are going to mention anything all that unflattering about her character.

Erm, no, Eddard Stark and Barristan Semly both remember Elia that way. Daenerys and Oberyn have nothing do with what Selmy or Eddard thinks of Elia.

[Lala]

Just because she was gentle and kind doesn't make her a doormat by default who would just accept what's considered a grave insult and disrespect in Westeros culture and the serious danger towards her kids Jon represents. Every high noble is proud, it goes with the territory.

The point some of us are trying to make is that Elia differs from Cat and Cersei in that her primary reaction to Jon would not be a reaction rooted in her pride, but rather a reaction rooted in her feelings of empathy and pity for a motherless child. This doesn't make her a doormat - unless by extension we're implying that Ned is a doormat for refusing to take Cersei's children as hostages. Mercy and kindness do not necessarily imply passivity or submissiveness - it simply means that Elia thinks differently from Cat and Cersei, which, given her different background, personality, and life experiences, is not that much of a stretch to make.

Also as a previous poster stated, Elia had two children - a son older than Jon and a daughter - Jon was unlikely to threaten Aegon's claim to the throne, and Elia was unable to have any more children. There is no Bran/Rickon to consider in this situation, making Jon significantly less dangerous to Elia's children.

[Minsc]

Jon does not represent any danger to his son, as long as he lives (Elia's son, I mean), since whatever Jon does, Aegon is still first in line and Jon is a bastard. Same way Jon was never a threat to Robb Stark's succession as Lord of Winterfell, he would not be a threat to Aegon either. How Elia would react, I have no idea, but what we know of her, she would not be cruel or outcasting with Jon, if you ask me. (Even if you don't ask me, :"D)

Yes, just like how Daeron II's throne was never threatened by Daemon Blackfyre, because the latter was a bastard. Additionally, as most people speculate that R and L married thus Jon wouldn't be a bastard.

Erm, no, Eddard Stark and Barristan Semly both remember Elia that way. Daenerys and Oberyn have nothing do with what Selmy or Eddard thinks of Elia.

She was still a woman that was brutally raped and murdered only minutes after she saw her infant son brutally murdered. Simply, most people have the common decency to speak well of the dead especially when they died in particularly horrific ways.

[Onna Lewyys]

I don't see it as evidence of anything that Rhaegar & Elia's marriage was without passionate love; that's just par for the course in Westeros, not just from what we know about Ned & Catelyn, but from what we've seen of every marriage in the whole series that I can think of. This is just not a society where people marry for love. But, like others have said, respect and affection (if not love) can grow in time, and there's certainly no evidence of Rhaegar & Elia being as unhappy in their marriage as, say, Cersei & Robert.

And now I'm wondering if anyone could find a quote about the Martells being upset with Rhaegar for "betraying" Elia with Lyanna. I vaguely remember something to that effect, but I have no idea whose POV it was or who was speaking and whether they are actually a reliable source. Because nothing in the Dorne POVs in AFFC that I can remember suggests any bitterness toward Rhaegar or the Targaryens on their part. The marriage pact between Arianne and Viserys seems to have been drawn up pretty soon after the war, and all these years later Doran is still supporting the Targaryen claim to the throne by sending Quentyn to marry Dany. So perhaps Elia was in fact not betrayed by Rhaegar at all. It's possible that they had something like what we would now call an "open marriage."

To support this theory, I say we look to Elia's family and the culture she came from. The Dornish are incredibly sexually progressive. They embrace non-traditional gender roles (Sand Snakes), bisexuality (Oberyn, most notably), and early sexual experiences (like Arianne's). They're also much more accepting of bastards than the other kingdoms, and they are known to take on many lovers. Oberyn, for example, has eight bastard daughters by five different women.

And if Ellaria is meant to be a window into Elia's character, as others have suggested here (a good theory, I think - their names are even very similar, and I'd like to think Martin did that for a reason), then it should be noted that Ellaria is also bisexual (or bi-curious at least), and that she doesn't seem to mind Oberyn's other bastards or his purported lovers. Of course, there's no evidence that Elia was bisexual or into threesomes, but i don't see how we can rule it out as a possibility either.

And another thing about Dorne is its practice of equal primogeniture, which means that daughters can inherit. This is also different from every other kingdom in Westeros. Women have more power in Dorne than anywhere else, and Elia would have grown up that way. So as good and gentle and sickly as she was, I certainly don't see a woman from that environment growing up meek or weak of spirit.

With all of this put together, I think there's a very good chance that Elia was much more free-spirited and savvy than we have been lead to believe.