Elia of Dorne: Princess, Sister, Wife, and Mother

[Kuther2000]

I suck at copy and pasting but here it is. All of these quotes come from Westeros.org

This came from the Westoros.org under Love, Sexuality and Consequences.

Oberyn Martell, Arianne and the Sand Snakes are not the norm for the Dornish when it comes to social interaction or sexual relationships; PCs should not be modeled on them on the assumption that their behaviour was perfectly acceptable.

Promiscuity is only somewhat more tolerated here than it is anywhere else in the Seven Kingdoms, and there is still an interest in seeing women come to the marriage bed as virgins.

Noblemen may sleep around. Generally, they can bed whomever they like with impunity, so long as it does no harm to someone else’s reputation

Within a marriage, if one spouse proposes taking a paramour, it’s a matter for negotiation… or not, if one spouse holds all the power in a marriage; this applies equally to both men and women.

If you choose to enter into an adulterous affair outside of an IC marriage, you MUST be willing to accept any and all consequences for your character, including the possibility that she might just be rendered unplayable. Infidelity, even in Dorne, is a serious matter, and not one to contemplate on a whim.

• There were Dornish troops with Rhaegar at the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him strongly, in part because of Rhaegar's treatment of his wife Elia and in part because of Doran Martell's innate caution (SSM: 1)
  

The quote about the Dornish being upset wasn't said by a character. It was asked to Martin by a fan. Here is one of the responses. There is also a SSM about Oberyn and Doran being furious about Rhaegar's behavior toward Elia but I can't find it at the moment.

It is not so much the bitterness toward the Targaryens. But Aerys who held Elia hostage and Rhaegar who treated her illy are dead. They have essentially paid for their crimes.

The only reason that they need the Targaryens back is because they have a claim to the throne. More loyalist would support them in their revenge with a Targaryen taking the throne. You can also see that the Martells are willing to help the Targaryens only if they get something out of it unlike other loyalist families. Another half-Martell on the throne.

The Lannisters who committed the atrocities are still in power. Cersei got her Queenhood with the blood of Elia and her children in her wake. The Martells want to destroy the Lannisters. This is probably what will get them in trouble.

I actually think that the Martells would be more okay with Robert taking the throne in the wake of Elia and the children's deaths if Robert had actually punished the Lannisters instead of rewarding him. They know that Ned and Robert's actions in rebelling were just. The Mad King even held his own grandchildren hostage.

I have no doubt that Elia was probably much more than people give her credit for because they only look at the outside.

[Onna Lewyys]

That's what I get for only reading the books, I suppose. (Thanks, bthew.) But even if the liberal sexual politics aren't representative of Dorne as a whole, they do seem to be representative of Elia's family, so I still don't think it can be ruled out completely.

[Kuther2000]

That's what I get for only reading the books, I suppose. But even if the liberal sexual politics aren't representative of Dorne as a whole, they do seem to be representative of Elia's family, so I still don't think it can be ruled out completely.

You also have to take into account that Oberyn is a man and a second son who doesn't have a lot of responsibility. Arianne will one day be the ruling head of Dorne and she thought about marrying Edmure Tully. I seriously doubt the Tullys would want their Lord's bride being promiscuous. Ellaria Sand is a bastard daughter without inheritance. Oberyn and Ellaria seem to have a special relationship so it is surprising that they aren't married. The only way that you could probably take from that is because she is a bastard with no inheritance rights and wouldn't make a good alliance.

Doran is apart of the Martell family and he doesn't seem to be so liberal in his sexuality. I mean I know he is an old man but he just doesn't seem like the type.

With Elia, she is a royal princess. Yea. She is from Dorne but she is marrying into the ruling family of Westeros. Her "pureness" is highly expected if she wants to make a marriage in the other part of Westeros. There has to be no doubts that the children are all Rhaegars. Quentyn also doesn't seem very liberal with sex. Wouldn't be surprised if he died a virgin.

I don't think it can be ruled out completely either. But I also think it is to show that not everyone is the same. Elia's sexuality mores may have been leaning more to the conservative side than the the liberal.

Perception is very important to these people. When you are going from Dorne to the other parts of Westeros, one walks a thin line in those views. Ashara is Dornish yet Barristan thinks of her as having been dishonored never taking into account that she was okay with it.

[lareine]

Thank you so much for starting this thread. Elia is one of my favorite characters and I hope we eventually get to learn more about her. I think its mentioned in AFFC that she was born prematurely and that as a result, her health was always delicate. Strength comes in many different forms however and to me, she was an incredibly "steely" woman. She had to be very mentally tough to deal with the events of her marriage when you think about it. Despite her fragile health she's sent to marry the crown prince and live in that court of vipers with a mad father-in-law, a husband who's prone to melancholy and an abused mother-in-law away from the love and support of her own family. She nearly dies and ruins her health giving them a male heir and a daughter not to mention being basically used as a hostage in order to get Dornish troops to fight against the rebels. Despite all that, the worst thing we hear mentioned about her is that she was "sickly," something she couldn't really help and it looks like she tried not to let hold her back. She's remembered as kind, gracious, clever and witty, characteristics that could not have been easy to maintain while living in the Red Keep unless they were genuine. Though she may have been unable to have a third child, in the end, she outlived both her husband and Lyanna and fought Gregor Clegane "like a tigress." I'd say Elia was one badass cookie!

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Doran is apart of the Martell family and he doesn't seem to be so liberal in his sexuality. I mean I know he is an old man but he just doesn't seem like the type.

With Elia, she is a royal princess. Yea. She is from Dorne but she is marrying into the ruling family of Westeros. Her "pureness" is highly expected if she wants to make a marriage in the other part of Westeros. There has to be no doubts that the children are all Rhaegars. Quentyn also doesn't seem very liberal with sex. Wouldn't be surprised if he died a virgin.

Arianne is royal princess and she doesn't seem overly concerned about her "pureness". I think that for the most part "westeros" had a problem with the Dornish but not the Targaryens. In a way, I could see the Targaryens seeing Dorne as their only...peers. They never conquered Dorne which means that Dorne was still a kingdom in their own right; until the marriage pact Dorne was completely independent. I imagine that means something to a conquering ruler. Like France and Spain.

I don't think they're expected to bow to westeros customs. I was trying to find the quote regarding Myriah Martell in kings landing but I can't locate it. But IIRC the Targaryens liked the Dornish while everyone else found them odd and unsettling.

But considering the two houses ancestry from essos. it would make sense that they might get along.

[David Selig]

The point some of us are trying to make is that Elia differs from Cat and Cersei in that her primary reaction to Jon would not be a reaction rooted in her pride, but rather a reaction rooted in her feelings of empathy and pity for a motherless child. This doesn't make her a doormat - unless by extension we're implying that Ned is a doormat for refusing to take Cersei's children as hostages. Mercy and kindness do not necessarily imply passivity or submissiveness - it simply means that Elia thinks differently from Cat and Cersei, which, given her different background, personality, and life experiences, is not that much of a stretch to make.

Sure she is different. But I really don't think there's enough evidence to suggest she's different enough to go completely against the societal norms and her own interests. It's one thing to feel empathy and pity for a random motherless child, it's quite another to accept this child when he represents a serious threat to your children and a huge humiliation for yourself. Is it possible? Sure, but it's very far from certain IMO.

Catelyn, for example, is a good and kind-hearted person most of the time, and as far as high nobles go, not all that proud, but still she really disliked Jon and the situation she was put in by his presence. Jon Targaryen would be much bigger threat to Aegon than Jon Snow was to Robb.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Sure she is different. But I really don't think there's enough evidence to suggest she's different enough to go completely against the societal norms and her own interests. It's one thing to feel empathy and pity for a random motherless child, it's quite another to accept this child when he represents a serious threat to your children and a huge humiliation for yourself. Is it possible? Sure, but it's very far from certain IMO.

Catelyn, for example, is a good and kind-hearted person most of the time, and as far as high nobles go, not all that proud, but still she really disliked Jon and the situation she was put in by his presence. Jon Targaryen would be much bigger threat to Aegon than Jon Snow was to Robb.

But is that the "normal" reaction? Considering that most of the families I know nowadays are blended families...how normal is it to wise some random child ill because of who it's parents are? Sure, that's the way many of the POV characters but would that be consensus throughout westeros? I don't think it would be. Particularly since a bastard child has very little rights. I think most are either just sent to someone else to "foster". The unusual part about Cat and Jon is the fact they had to live together. Cat expected Ned to send Jon "away". When Ned insisted on keeping Jon there is when her head exploded.

Having the sign of your partner's infidelity in your face always hurts but for rational folks, but it's not enough to wish a child harm.

[Ygrain]

Sure she is different. But I really don't think there's enough evidence to suggest she's different enough to go completely against the societal norms and her own interests. It's one thing to feel empathy and pity for a random motherless child, it's quite another to accept this child when he represents a serious threat to your children and a huge humiliation for yourself. Is it possible? Sure, but it's very far from certain IMO.

Catelyn, for example, is a good and kind-hearted person most of the time, and as far as high nobles go, not all that proud, but still she really disliked Jon and the situation she was put in by his presence. Jon Targaryen would be much bigger threat to Aegon than Jon Snow was to Robb.

While I agree with your assessment of Catelyn and I really like her, I'd never describe her as "gentle". I think the OP had a great point in highlighting Elia's behaviour towards baby Tyrion - she doesn't see him as a freak or abomination or a thing to mock but a baby. - Which is exactly what Jon would have been: a baby. Whatever threat he might poise - and I believe this issue is rather exaggerated, as 1) the succession line based on primogeniture is pretty clear and 2) the quality of relationship between brothers depends also on other things than their mother(s) (cough Stannis and Renly, anyone?), and here Elia's attitude might strongly affect the future competition or lack thereof - it would be a distant future.

[Onna Lewyys]

Doran is apart of the Martell family and he doesn't seem to be so liberal in his sexuality. I mean I know he is an old man but he just doesn't seem like the type.

With Elia, she is a royal princess. Yea. She is from Dorne but she is marrying into the ruling family of Westeros. Her "pureness" is highly expected if she wants to make a marriage in the other part of Westeros. There has to be no doubts that the children are all Rhaegars. Quentyn also doesn't seem very liberal with sex. Wouldn't be surprised if he died a virgin.

I don't think it can be ruled out completely either. But I also think it is to show that not everyone is the same. Elia's sexuality mores may have been leaning more to the conservative side than the the liberal.

Perception is very important to these people. When you are going from Dorne to the other parts of Westeros, one walks a thin line in those views. Ashara is Dornish yet Barristan thinks of her as having been dishonored never taking into account that she was okay with it.

My theory isn't proposing promiscuity, though; it's proposing that Rhaegar & Elia jointly took one paramour, which even going by what you linked, was a practice for some people. And it says it was a matter of negotiation. Unless you think Rhaegar had all the power in the relationship. . . Of course that's a possibility - he was the crown prince and Elia has been described as "fragile" - but I would like to think that she had more of a say in the relationship. And as others have pointed out, I think we can conclude from Dany's HOTU vision that Elia was aware of Rhaegar's prophecy scheme, so perhaps she was even complicit in it. Even if her family had been outraged at his "treatment" of her, perhaps they got it wrong just like Lyanna's family did, painting Rhaegar as a villain to protect their image of their dear sister/daughter.

[The Storm Queen]

Aegon still would've been the heir, though. Considering Jon was born after, and to a different woman. Plus Lyanna and Rhaegar might not have even been married. But, yeah I'm sure she considered that.

I'm not a big fan of all the prophecies myself, I do go along with them occassionally.

Sure she is different. But I really don't think there's enough evidence to suggest she's different enough to go completely against the societal norms and her own interests. It's one thing to feel empathy and pity for a random motherless child, it's quite another to accept this child when he represents a serious threat to your children and a huge humiliation for yourself. Is it possible? Sure, but it's very far from certain IMO.

Catelyn, for example, is a good and kind-hearted person most of the time, and as far as high nobles go, not all that proud, but still she really disliked Jon and the situation she was put in by his presence. Jon Targaryen would be much bigger threat to Aegon than Jon Snow was to Robb.

But is that the "normal" reaction? Considering that most of the families I know nowadays are blended families...how normal is it to wise some random child ill because of who it's parents are? Sure, that's the way many of the POV characters but would that be consensus throughout westeros? I don't think it would be. Particularly since a bastard child has very little rights. I think most are either just sent to someone else to "foster". The unusual part about Cat and Jon is the fact they had to live together. Cat expected Ned to send Jon "away". When Ned insisted on keeping Jon there is when her head exploded.

Having the sign of your partner's infidelity in your face always hurts but for rational folks, but it's not enough to wish a child harm.

Have to go with David Selig here: We have to separate Elia´s emotional reaction from her rational/political reaction as the daughter of a great House. As an individual she might have come to love and care for Jon in his own right but as Elia of Dorne this is not an option for her. Surely she remembers the Blackfyre rebellion and the fear of teh evil Dornish influence that among other reasons triggered it.

Jon would have the North, Riverlands and the Vale behind him if push came to shove. The Lannisters feel slighted by the Iron Throne and the Dornish marriage, the less we talk about the Baratheons the better and the Tyrells have a century-old feud with the Martells. So who exactly would stand with Elia and her children in case of a succession crisis apart from the Martells? The Greyjoys?

This is a anarchic self-help system where might makes right. Nobody would have cared that Jon is not trueborn/the third in the line of succession if enough players had a vested interest into a Jon=King outcome. I like Elia and I have a hard time to see her as stupid enough to ignore all of this.

Concerning the third head: I can see Elia being fine with a paramour given a third child might kill her. However, I doubt she thought of the daughter of a Great House knowing the political implication. If Jon´s mother was Barbrey Ryswell (or another daughter of a third-tier house) things probably would have turned out better.

[David Selig]

Ensuring that her son inherit the title is the main duty of a married noblewoman. Her birth House depends on her to do her best to achieve that. It's also in her own best interest, obviously.

The Targaryen dynasty history has a number of examples where primogeniture was ignored (Maegor the Cruel, Dance of the Dragons, Aegon V) so Elia would have had a reason to be worried, especially given that Lyanna's House was more powerful than the Martells.

It's not about pride, it's about duty, self-preservation and self-interest. Jon's existence would be a big problem for Elia even putting aside the public humiliation part.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Have to go with David Selig here: We have to separate Elia´s emotional reaction from her rational/political reaction as the daughter of a great House. As an individual she might have come to love and care for Jon in his own right but as Elia of Dorne this is not an option for her. Surely she remembers the Blackfyre rebellion and the fear of teh evil Dornish influence that among other reasons triggered it.

Jon would have the North, Riverlands and the Vale behind him if push came to shove. The Lannisters feel slighted by the Iron Throne and the Dornish marriage, the less we talk about the Baratheons the better and the Tyrells have a century-old feud with the Martells. So who exactly would stand with Elia and her children in case of a succession crisis apart from the Martells? The Greyjoys?

This is a anarchic self-help system where might makes right. Nobody would have cared that Jon is not trueborn/the third in the line of succession if enough players had a vested interest into a Jon=King outcome. I like Elia and I have a hard time to see her as stupid enough to ignore all of this.

Concerning the third head: I can see Elia being fine with a paramour given a third child might kill her. However, I doubt she thought of the daughter of a Great House knowing the political implication. If Jon´s mother was Barbrey Ryswell (or another daughter of a third-tier house) things probably would have turned out better.

I understand what you're saying. And if Elia were Cersi then yes, she would go after Jon. But I don't see Elia as that ruthless, and I really don't see that as a sign of stupidity. Eia doesn't come across as the power hungry political animal that Cersi is. Sure, Elia wouldn't want Jon to be a problem in the future but being the king's bastard does not put you in line for the throne.

Cersi was hunting down Robert's other children because of their appearance. Robert's bastard children favored him greatly while her own children did not. It was incest cover up not an effort to prevent some tavern wench or apprentice smith from taking the throne.

The Blackfyre's were eligible because Viserys I legitimized them all. Add a little romantic drama as a spark and they found themselves in a roaring fire of drama. Additionally, Daemon Blackfyre was apparently extra epic and it seemed like his father was starting to groom him for ruling. Rumors were that "Daemon, as a Targaryen on both sides and a legitimized heir to the throne, was a logical choice to replace the academic king. Daemon, they said, was a better man and a better king." In other words, it was a unique situation. Jon's situation would not have been the same. Best Jon could have hoped for would be hand of the king. IE not a huge threat. And remember just because a person's family is from "the north, or the vale, or whatever" doesn't mean that their realms can/will rally the bannermen for them.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

You gotta remember, Lyanna is not the heir to winterfell. And unless all her brothers and their children died she wouldn't be.

[The Storm Queen]

I understand what you're saying. And if Elia were Cersi then yes, she would go after Jon. But I don't see Elia as that ruthless, and I really don't see that as a sign of stupidity. Eia doesn't come across as the power hungry political animal that Cersi is. Sure, Elia wouldn't want Jon to be a problem in the future but being the king's bastard does not put you in line for the throne.

Cersi was hunting down Robert's other children because of their appearance. Robert's bastard children favored him greatly while her own children did not. It was incest cover up not an effort to prevent some tavern wench or apprentice smith from taking the throne.

The Blackfyre's were eligible because Viserys I legitimized them all. Add a little romantic drama as a spark and they found themselves in a roaring fire of drama. Additionally, Daemon Blackfyre was apparently extra epic and it seemed like his father was starting to groom him for ruling. Rumors were that "Daemon, as a Targaryen on both sides and a legitimized heir to the throne, was a logical choice to replace the academic king. Daemon, they said, was a better man and a better king." In other words, it was a unique situation. Jon's situation would not have been the same. Best Jon could have hoped for would be hand of the king. IE not a huge threat. And remember just because a person's family is from "the north, or the vale, or whatever" doesn't mean that their realms can/will rally the bannermen for them.

I did not make myself clear, sorry. I am not talking about her going after Jon. But I can see her ensuring in all ways that Jon´s status is made clear and the inheritance rights of her children are maintained. Btw, ensuring the latter I also would not call power hungry because to me it is basic self-preservation.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

I did not make myself clear, sorry. I am not talking about her going after Jon. But I can see her ensuring in all ways that Jon´s status is made clear and the inheritance rights of her children are maintained. Btw, ensuring the latter I also would not call power hungry because to me it is basic self-preservation.

Oh yep. I completely agree.

[RhaenysBee]

Yes, just like how Daeron II's throne was never threatened by Daemon Blackfyre, because the latter was a bastard. Additionally, as most people speculate that R and L married thus Jon wouldn't be a bastard.

Yeah, if R and L married, it's kinda like Bran threatening Robb's succession... Or, okay, different mother... Frey Son No. 5 By Lady Frey No.3 threatening Frey Son No. 1 by Lady Frey No. 1. Aegon is still first in line... And Jon is not Ramsay Bolton

She was still a woman that was brutally raped and murdered only minutes after she saw her infant son brutally murdered. Simply, most people have the common decency to speak well of the dead especially when they died in particularly horrific ways.

An absolutely fair observation, but it only works within rational confines. Like, nobody speaks well of Aerys only because he was brutally murdered by his own body guard. And I don't think anybody will speak well of Cersei either after she dies. So yes, people obviously speak well of the dead, but it also depends on what sort of a life somebody had. In case of a generally good natured person, whose imperfections are only minor human frailties death easily washes these out of memory... not in case of a generally shitty nature or nasty deeds, though, if you ask me.

[Minsc]

Yeah, if R and L married, it's kinda like Bran threatening Robb's succession... Or, okay, different mother... Frey Son No. 5 By Lady Frey No.3 threatening Frey Son No. 1 by Lady Frey No. 1. Aegon is still first in line... And Jon is not Ramsay Bolton

You do realize that the Freys routinely attempt to subvert the normal line of succession right?

An absolutely fair observation, but it only works within rational confines. Like, nobody speaks well of Aerys only because he was brutally murdered by his own body guard. And I don't think anybody will speak well of Cersei either after she dies. So yes, people obviously speak well of the dead, but it also depends on what sort of a life somebody had. In case of a generally good natured person, whose imperfections are only minor human frailties death easily washes these out of memory... not in case of a generally shitty nature or nasty deeds, though, if you ask me.

Not like wanting your husband's love child living with you isn't a generally shitty nature or nasty deed. Instead, it was the normal reaction within Westeros society thus no body would judge her in wrong from desiring that. Thus it wouldn't be the same case as Aerys and Cersei.

[protar]

You do realize that the Freys routinely attempt to subvert the normal line of succession right?

Any examples of that? So far as I can see they grumble about it and aren't overly distraught when their relatives die. But that's it.

[Minsc]

Any examples of that? So far as I can see they grumble about it and aren't overly distraught when their relatives die. But that's it.

Well, if speculation is correct Little Walder did murder Big Walder.

[RhaenysBee]

You do realize that the Freys routinely attempt to subvert the normal line of succession right?

Not like wanting your husband's love child living with you isn't a generally shitty nature or nasty deed. Instead, it was the normal reaction within Westeros society thus no body would judge her in wrong from desiring that. Thus it wouldn't be the same case as Aerys and Cersei.

That was my whole entire point :dunno: That Elia is remembered well for a reason while Aerys is not remembered well for a reason as well. All I did was bring out the difference, I never compared Elia to Aerys or Cersei or not wanting a love child to live with you to burning people. *sigh*

It's not shitty nature or nasty deed at all. But I thought we were already beyond this Jon question and my response was rather general on what makes somebody being spoken well of after passing away. If we are not beyond the Jon question though, two questions arise: A.) Is Jon legitimate ( = did Rhaegar marry Lyanna) ? Because if we stick with the fact that Targaryans practiced polygamy and society accepted that, Jon is legitimate if Rhaegar wedded Lyanna and Elia doesn't really have a place to complain (with all respect and love for her as one of my favorite characters). B.) Would Rhaegar want him to live with Elia and his other children in the first place? (this mostly depends on the first question and on whether Lyanna is alive or not in our hypothetic situation.)

Well, if speculation is correct Little Walder did murder Big Walder.

That would mostly just justify that Little and Big Walder were little animals... There were like ten thousand Freys before Little Walder in line no? Is he gonna kill those all?