Lyanna and Rhaegar.

[RhaenysBee]

But dude it's Rhaegar

:agree:

A fifteen year old girl should be the last character you should expect to be self-consistent. She's a young girl who fell in love, but was betrothed to another. WHO in their right mind would NOT run off with RHAEGAR? I totally would. (Sorry, Elia)

[Nami]

I honestly don't like that whole love at first sight and star crossed, tragic lovers crap. That's so damn boring :stillsick:

You should complain to GRRM, because that's exactly where he's going with them

He's been hinting at a tragic love between these two since the beginning

[jenerationx]

And I just haven't been on Westeros long enough to see this answered:

When when Robert & Ned are talking in the Barrowlands on the trip south from WF to KL and Robert starts roaring about "how many HUNDREDS of times did he rape her?",

Ned keeps quiet.

Is the consensus that he kept quiet to protect Jon (hence, another little piece evidence in favor of R+L=J), did he not know the truth, or did he agree with Robert (maybe a little of all 3?)?

I think the general consensus is that Ned thinks of Rhaegar a number of times, and never has a bad thought about the guy. In fact, he has many favorable thoughts. Don't think a guy as honorable as Ned would have those kinds of thoughts about his beloved sister's rapist.

[Nami]

About Robert and Lyanna, she probably didn't want a man who slept around. Rhaegar wasn't sleeping around, apparently he just wanted her (enough to abandon his family...)

Lyanna was most likely living the thrill of "first love".

[King Robert's Warhammer]

But Bob got the idea of kidnap and constant rapery from somewhere. Where? Did he never question where her guard were and if any survived?

[Nami]

But Bob got the idea of kidnap and constant rapery from somewhere. Where? Did he never question where her guard were and if any survived?

From his denial, honestly

The kidnap because he probably didn't know R+L had met and kept in contact or maybe started an affair before the elopement. So in his mind if Lyanna disappeared with R, he must have kidnapped her. Plus the Lyanna in his mind was someone sweet and not wild, so he would not assume she willingly ran away.

And the rape because, well, they were alone somewhere...so he concluded she must have been raped. It also fits to his whole monster picture of Rhaegar.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

I have a hard time understanding how a girl complaining about how Robert would never be able to be pleased with just one woman would run to a married man. That just makes her a hypocrite. It would destroy her character all together.

I agree with you. It doesn't make much sense to me either. Also Rhaegar is almost universally thought of as being honourable, yet I cannot recall hardly any characters questioning the wisdom of him setting aside his Dornish wife and his two children for a mere slip of a girl?

Contrast this with the reaction that Ned Stark's alleged indiscretions in relation to his supposed illegitimate son, seem to have caused.

I think there might be more to this than what we have been hitherto made aware of, and we might discover more details of these earlier events as the books progress to the end.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Official stark story is that Rheagar Kidnapped and raped Lyanna. We know this from the story Bran told osha in GOT. Also Brandon believed that Lyanna was being raped.

[The Angels' Prophet]

Not meaning any offense, but shouldn't topics of this nature be posted in the R+L=J thread?

Anyway, regardless, I agree with Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love. I don't care if it would be clichè. It would still be more interesting to me then Rhaegar being a crazy rapist who kidnapped Lyanna. Bobby B seemed to be one of the few who believed that image of Rhaegar. I do not like the idea of that, because it would make Dany the only current gen Targ that wasn't mad, and you can argue that she is.

Man, why is it that I have such horrible diction on this site? I need to learn english better -_-.

[King Robert's Warhammer]

From his denial, honestly

The kidnap because he probably didn't know R+L had met and kept in contact or maybe started an affair before the elopement. So in his mind if Lyanna disappeared with R, he must have kidnapped her. Plus the Lyanna in his mind was someone sweet and not wild, so he would not assume she willingly ran away.

And the rape because, well, they were alone somewhere...so he concluded she must have been raped. It also fits to his whole monster picture of Rhaegar.

Was he that obtuse though? Never to question Lyanna's supposed guards?

[Ygrain]

Official stark story is that Rheagar Kidnapped and raped Lyanna. We know this from the story Bran told osha in GOT. Also Brandon believed that Lyanna was being raped.

Unsupported statement, again. We don't know what Brandon thought, because in the limited account of his action that we have, he never mentions her.

There seems to be some version of romantic abduction, at least on the Targ side, as Dany mentions Rhaegar taking Lyanna at swordpoint and later daydreaming about Daario coming to abduct her like that prior her marriage to Hizdahr. If anything can be concluded from this, then Dany seems to be under the impression that the sword was used against guards and Lyanna, while not complicit in the scheme, was definitely not unwilling, rather the contrary.

[King Robert's Warhammer]

Not meaning any offense, but shouldn't topics of this nature be posted in the R+L=J thread?

Anyway, regardless, I agree with Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love. I don't care if it would be clichè. It would still be more interesting to me then Rhaegar being a crazy rapist who kidnapped Lyanna. Bobby B seemed to be one of the few who believed that image of Rhaegar. I do not like the idea of that, because it would make Dany the only current gen Targ that wasn't mad, and you can argue that she is.

Man, why is it that I have such horrible diction on this site? I need to learn english better -_-.

I didn't want to go down the =J thing. There is more to the relationship than just that.

[Nami]

Not meaning any offense, but shouldn't topics of this nature be posted in the R+L=J thread?

Anyway, regardless, I agree with Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love. I don't care if it would be clichè. It would still be more interesting to me then Rhaegar being a crazy rapist who kidnapped Lyanna. Bobby B seemed to be one of the few who believed that image of Rhaegar. I do not like the idea of that, because it would make Dany the only current gen Targ that wasn't mad, and you can argue that she is.

Man, why is it that I have such horrible diction on this site? I need to learn english better -_-.

I think the thread is about R+L before Jon

[The Taxman]

If you play a instrument you're bound to get chicks regardless of your marital status. Just like in real life... musicians cheat on their wives all the time on tour. I'm not saying Lyanna was a groupie or fangirl, but the fact that she could be a home wrecker probably aroused her a la her wilding antics.

[jenerationx]

Was he that obtuse though? Never to question Lyanna's supposed guards?

Lyanna was... I think 15? When she and Rhaegar went off. She was a beloved daughter/sister. Even if it was consensual (which I think it was), her parents/brothers wouldn't have necessarily approved. Since Rhaegar was older and in their mind, more responsible because he was a man while she was a maid, they went to Aerys to demand her return, or at least for Rhaegar to answer for his actions. So the 'official' story is that Lyanna was abducted, just like in modern times when some teenager runs off with her older boyfriend that her parents don't approve of.

Robert was blind to Lyanna's true nature/desires/wants. Ned even says outright to him that Robert did not know Lyanna the way Ned did. I've always read that as censure, because Robert's "love" (or rather lust, imho) for Lyanna led him to believe that Lyanna wanted him too -- or really, in my opinion, he didn't really care what she wanted. He wanted her, they were betrothed, and that was that. Plus he's always been fairly arrogant with all his womanizing etc. His pride would never allow him to believe that Lyanna preferred another man over him.

Then there's the fact that when he's talking about it with Ned, Robert says that in the end, despite killing him, Rhaegar won anyway, because now Rhaegar is with Lyanna while he's stuck with Cersei. To me that means some part of Robert must have known it was consensual... or else he has a really sick idea of what the afterlife is, if he imagines that a woman has to spend eternity with her rapist.

[Lost Melnibonean]

What about him? Surely she would have had more of a possible escort than just her wee brother?

I agree. I have a hunch, and that's all it is--not a theory, that Ned arrived at the Eyrie a little less than 3 weeks after HH and Brandon was nearly to RR when Rhaegar, Arthur & Oswell caught up with Lyanna, BJ & their retinue near Moat Cailin. I suspect the trio used stealth & Lyanna went willingly telling young BJ that she loved Rhaegar and young BJ who loved his sister allowed her to go. But that's all just a hunch...

[Ygrain]

I agree. I have a hunch, and that's all it is--not a theory, that Ned arrived at the Eyrie a little less than 3 weeks after HH and Brandon was nearly to RR when Rhaegar, Arthur & Oswell caught up with Lyanna, BJ & their retinue near Moat Cailin. I suspect the trio used stealth & Lyanna went willingly telling young BJ that she loved Rhaegar and young BJ who loved his sister allowed her to go. But that's all just a hunch...

There was about a year betwee HH and the supposed abduction.

[joluoto]

You call it tragic love, I call it Stockholm syndrome.

[The guy from the Vale]

You call it tragic love, I call it Stockholm syndrome.

That assumes Rhaegar called the shots, Lyanna didn't fancy Rhaegar before the "abduction", and that Rhaegar's intention was really to kidnap Lyanna instead of some other goal.

All of these are assumptions. Not necessarily unlikely to be true, but nevertheless someting we just don't know (yet?).

[Ygrain]

You call it tragic love, I call it Stockholm syndrome.

How does the wolf blood which led Lyanna to an early grave fit in the picture?