Cersei in AFFC

[melanniemunoz]

I absolutely agree! I want her to have her revenge on the High Septon. I never thought that would actually pull for Cersei, but in this particular situation I do. It's a sexually degrading punishment ordered by a sanctimonious religious leader, and there's no excuse for it. I think that Cersei does truly love Tommen, even though she is an awful mother, because she accepts this humiliating punishment just so that she can see him again.

Cersei is a terrible mother, but I don't think that her feelings for Joffery were inappropriate. As a mom who's breast fed two babies, I can attest that it's normal to enjoy breastfeeding. I think that Cersei just loved bonding with Joffery as she nursed him - it was probably the first time that she felt unselfish love.

The way she described that feeling seemed different to me, but I didn't know it was something enjoyable. Yet time after time, Cersei continues to make me find a reason for those feelings.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

Most of her POVs are completely facepalm-worthy. She displays overconfident idiocy time and again. I think Tywin's death and Tyrion's escape on top of Joffrey's poisoning really undid something in her and she has great difficulty controlling her emotions to think clearly. Most times she takes stupid actions, it's because she is angry at some "insolence" (this word gets used a lot) and reacts with her gut. Furthermore, she is quite frequently drinking or drunk on wine more than she used to.

She does display some shrewdness the day she goes to Baelor's scept and negotiates with the High Holiness. Urging Meryn to move the crowd aside gently, choosing to walk rather than start a confrontation, then accomplishing three goals in one by obtaining the blessing for Tommen and getting rid of the sparrows and debt. We can only assume she had a rare moment of her old clarity and sobriety on this day.

[illrede]

The thing I noticed is how she systematically works a dimunitive into every concept her brain handles that she can manage. The "little queen", getting a ship named after Tywin so she can use feminim pronouns about it, etc.

[Dany Girl]

The way she described that feeling seemed different to me, but I didn't know it was something enjoyable. Yet time after time, Cersei continues to make me find a reason for those feelings.

many mothers feel joy the first time they feel their baby latch on, or hold them. It's a feeling of love that cannot be described. It's not perverted.

[melanniemunoz]

many mothers feel joy the first time they feel their baby latch on, or hold them. It's a feeling of love that cannot be described. It's not perverted.

Ok. Like I said, it just seemed strange when I read it.

[Blueberry Stark]

The way she described that feeling seemed different to me, but I didn't know it was something enjoyable. Yet time after time, Cersei continues to make me find a reason for those feelings.

Well, some women hate it too, but I just always interpreted it that Cersei liked breastfeeding. I don't think that her feelings for Joffery were sexual, however, given that she's had a long-standing, incestuous relationship with Jaime it doesn't seem like a farfetched conclusion.

[melanniemunoz]

Well, some women hate it too, but I just always interpreted it that Cersei liked breastfeeding. I don't think that her feelings for Joffery were sexual, however, given that she's had a long-standing, incestuous relationship with Jaime it doesn't seem like a farfetched conclusion.

One of the many reasons I thought of it in the first place. Also, has anyone noticed that she shames "whores" or prosititues or girls who lose their maidenhead before marriage, when she did it too? I don't understand that. There is no shame in it, however she thinks so, but she doesn't shame herself... :dunno:

[Dany Girl]

Ok. Like I said, it just seemed strange when I read it.

it does sound strange and this is one of those incidence that GRRM is trying to relate an emotion that he's never felt so can't possibly describe very well, only a mother can feel it. Some mom's don't enjoy breastfeeding, but still the initial time you hold your baby is pretty universally described as the most intense rush of love, joy, and a million more emotions. While she commits incest with her brother, that does not make her a child molester.

[melanniemunoz]

it does sound strange and this is one of those incidence that GRRM is trying to relate an emotion that he's never felt so can't possibly describe very well, only a mother can feel it. Some mom's don't enjoy breastfeeding, but still the initial time you hold your baby is pretty universally described as the most intense rush of love, joy, and a million more emotions. While she commits incest with her brother, that does not make her a child molester.

She did kill tons of children though. :dunno:

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

She deserves to be punished for her crimes, but the walk of shame was a punishment for sleeping with men outside of marriage. That doesn't seem right to me. And if she is to be punished for her crimes, I definitly hope it won't be in the most mysoginistic and humiliating way possible

Amory Lorch was not punished for killing Yoren or letting the Tickler torture people, Joffrey wasn't punished for having Ned beheaded, Jaime wasn't punished for pushing Bran out the window or ordering the deaths of Stark men, Tyrion is never punished for his actual crimes but only for being a dwarf, Theon is tortured not by those he wronged, but by a sadist for the fun of it. There is indirect recompense going on everywhere, just because this one was humiliating instead of physically painful shouldn't make it less deserved.

In this world, we have to be satisfied with the source of just desserts regardless of whether they come from the High Sparrow for silly reasons or come from Arya as direct vengeance for what Cersei has done to her family.

[Mad Monkey]

One of the many reasons I thought of it in the first place. Also, has anyone noticed that she shames "whores" or prosititues or girls who lose their maidenhead before marriage, when she did it too? I don't understand that. There is no shame in it, however she thinks so, but she doesn't shame herself... :dunno:

It's common for people with power to feel as if they are above the rules. Cersei shouldn't be shamed for having sex with other men after her husband died, and frankly she and Robert had no right to demand sexual fidelity from each other considering how little regard they both have for the concept. However, Cersei doesn't extend this magnanimous attitude towards anyone else. She is above the rules and can do whatever who wants, but anyone else is pretty much born beyond redemption. It's part of the worldview that Tywin instilled in his children.

Every other woman in her life is either a whore (Taena, Margaery) or... does she ever interact with any woman that she doesn't deride as a whore, actually? Apart from the septas and people she doesn't think about at all, she's probably the biggest slut-shamer in the books, if only because that's her go-to allegation.

I don't think Cersei is a monster per se but she is definitely a flawed person. I did feel sorry for her during her walk of shame; it's actually another example of the running theme in the series, of people being punished for things that they either didn't do or aren't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things (Tyrion punished for murdering Joffrey, Jaime condemned for killing Aerys) while their even more horrific crimes go almost acknowledged (Jaime pushing Bran, Tyrion killing Shae and raping Tysha). Cersei isn't getting her comeuppance for the slaughter of all those children or her role in the torture and murder of innocents in Qyburn's dungeon, she's getting it because of what even the High Septon himself acknowledges is her least severe crime.

[The Mountain That Flies]

I think Tywin's death and Tyrion's escape on top of Joffrey's poisoning really undid something in her and she has great difficulty controlling her emotions to think clearly.

This is something that I feel like gets ignored a fair bit. It's easy to caually look at Cersei's plot arc and say she got dumber as she went, but her father and favorite son were just killed (in her mind) by somone she never trusted and tried to kill multiple times. We know her feelings towards Tyrion are what poisoned their relationship, not the other way around, but to her it must have been a terrible vindication of something she'd been dreading for over two decades.

Even if she tries to dismiss Tywin as having held her back, she's going to have some strong emotional reactions to him dying a sudden and violent death. And this was only a few weeks after watching her son choke to death, with his last action being to pleadingly look into her eyes begging for help. Regardless if someone is a stone cold bitch, both of those events (especially Joffrey's death) could drive them over the edge, so it's hardly suprising that Cersei becomes a conflict-seeking alchoholic as a result.

[Stan the Man]

It's common for people with power to feel as if they are above the rules. Cersei shouldn't be shamed for having sex with other men after her husband died, and frankly she and Robert had no right to demand sexual fidelity from each other considering how little regard they both have for the concept. However, Cersei doesn't extend this magnanimous attitude towards anyone else. She is above the rules and can do whatever who wants, but anyone else is pretty much born beyond redemption. It's part of the worldview that Tywin instilled in his children.

Every other woman in her life is either a whore (Taena, Margaery) or... does she ever interact with any woman that she doesn't deride as a whore, actually? Apart from the septas and people she doesn't think about at all, she's probably the biggest slut-shamer in the books, if only because that's her go-to allegation.

I don't think Cersei is a monster per se but she is definitely a flawed person. I did feel sorry for her during her walk of shame; it's actually another example of the running theme in the series, of people being punished for things that they either didn't do or aren't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things (Tyrion punished for murdering Joffrey, Jaime condemned for killing Aerys) while their even more horrific crimes go almost acknowledged (Jaime pushing Bran, Tyrion killing Shae and raping Tysha). Cersei isn't getting her comeuppance for the slaughter of all those children or her role in the torture and murder of innocents in Qyburn's dungeon, she's getting it because of what even the High Septon himself acknowledges is her least severe crime.

Never thought about it that way, it does seem wierd that she's paraded around as a whore for extramarital affiars, but noone mentions the wanton child massacre

[Dany Girl]

She did kill tons of children though. :dunno:

being a terrible human being doesn't automatically make you a child molester either. She's a horrible person, not denying that. The one point that she may be sexually attracted to her new born is the only one that is wrong IMO. I do find her fascinating in the same way I find serial killers fascinating. I want to know what makes her tick, and how she ended up being such a horrible human being.

[Queen Daenerys]

Amory Lorch was punished for killing Yoren or letting the Tickler torture people, Joffrey wasn't punished for having Ned beheaded, Jaime wasn't punished for pushing Bran out the window or ordering the deaths of Stark men, Tyrion is never punished for his actual crimes but only for being a dwarf, Theon is tortured not by those he wronged, but by a sadist for the fun of it. There is indirect recompense going on everywhere, just because this one was humiliating instead of physically painful shouldn't make it less deserved.

In this world, we have to be satisfied with the source of just desserts regardless of whether they come from the High Sparrow for silly reasons or come from Arya as direct vengeance for what Cersei has done to her family.

I just cannot accept this kind of punishment, no matter what she did. The fact that she had to suffer the walk of shame just because a mysoginous High Septon thought it was what a woman who has sex with several men deserves makes it even worse of course.

If she was killed by Arya, Jaime, or anybody for her crimes, I wouldn't object. But the walk of shame was just unfair and disgusting.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Well, some women hate it too, but I just always interpreted it that Cersei liked breastfeeding. I don't think that her feelings for Joffery were sexual, however, given that she's had a long-standing, incestuous relationship with Jaime it doesn't seem like a farfetched conclusion.

and her first cousin Lancel

.....and she gets inordinately angry that her father had sex with a whore before their deaths.

[indignant mushroom]

Amory Lorch was not punished for killing Yoren or letting the Tickler torture people, Joffrey wasn't punished for having Ned beheaded, Jaime wasn't punished for pushing Bran out the window or ordering the deaths of Stark men, Tyrion is never punished for his actual crimes but only for being a dwarf, Theon is tortured not by those he wronged, but by a sadist for the fun of it. There is indirect recompense going on everywhere, just because this one was humiliating instead of physically painful shouldn't make it less deserved.

In this world, we have to be satisfied with the source of just desserts regardless of whether they come from the High Sparrow for silly reasons or come from Arya as direct vengeance for what Cersei has done to her family.

It was the reason for the WoS that's the problem. She slept with men, and that's a big no-no in Westeros. The WoS itself was misogynistic.

Cersei wasn't even punished for killing babies or any of the other atrocities she committed.

[Mad Monkey]

Never thought about it that way, it does seem wierd that she's paraded around as a whore for extramarital affiars, but noone mentions the wanton child massacre

Well, it's not weird, just horrifying. The child massacre thing was almost a state secret; she sent a coterie of loyal goldcloaks out to do it (Janos Slynt and Allar Deem and a few others); Tyrion executed Allar Deem and exiled Slynt and the others away. It would be almost impossible for the High Sparrow to have even found out about it since he wasn't in KL at the time and no one is likely to come forward about it.

But my point was that because of politics in the series people are routinely punished for acts that are either laudable or unimportant to our eyes while they skate by for things that are horrific. Of all of Cersei's crimes, the one that she was eventually punished for is the one that the HS, this righteous holy man, said was her least problematic and most easily forgivable.

The walk of shame was disgraceful and misogynistic and it clearly damaged Cersei psychologically, but there's another thing about that -- in their society, something like that would probably be considered clemency compared to other penalties we've seen, such as what happened to the Lady Darklyn after the Defiance of Duskendale. (She basically got Theon'ed.)

[Stan the Man]

Well, it's not weird, just horrifying. The child massacre thing was almost a state secret; she sent a coterie of loyal goldcloaks out to do it (Janos Slynt and Allar Deem and a few others); Tyrion executed Allar Deem and exiled Slynt and the others away. It would be almost impossible for the High Sparrow to have even found out about it since he wasn't in KL at the time and no one is likely to come forward about it.

But my point was that because of politics in the series people are routinely punished for acts that are either laudable or unimportant to our eyes while they skate by for things that are horrific. Of all of Cersei's crimes, the one that she was eventually punished for is the one that the HS, this righteous holy man, said was her least problematic and most easily forgivable.

The walk of shame was disgraceful and misogynistic and it clearly damaged Cersei psychologically, but there's another thing about that -- in their society, something like that would probably be considered clemency compared to other penalties we've seen, such as what happened to the Lady Darklyn after the Defiance of Duskendale. (She basically got Theon'ed.)

Ok, I guess wierd was the wrong choice of word then

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

I just cannot accept this kind of punishment, no matter what she did. The fact that she had to suffer the walk of shame just because a mysoginous High Septon thought it was what a woman who has sex with several men deserves makes it even worse of course.

If she was killed by Arya, Jaime, or anybody for her crimes, I wouldn't object. But the walk of shame was just unfair and disgusting.

How was it unfair when she deserves worse? Cersei is never going to repent for her crimes so she may as well suffer for them, even if her punisher isn't doing it for that purpose.