Ned put his honor above the safety and happiness of his family.

[Pikachu101]

I wouldn't call it selfish, messed up if you think trying to save a woman and her three innocent children is dumb <_<

I would say it was ridiculously naive and short sighted though. But then again so was Cersei's; her whole plan was dependent on a 15 year old boy.

The downfall of House Stark lies solely on the shoulders of Robb Stark and his penis

[Mad Monkey]

Hold on, didn't Ned spent the last ten minutes or so of his life proclaiming himself a traitor and honoring Joffrey as the one true King of Westeros solely to save his daughters? While I don't agree that Ned has never put honor before family (if he never did that he would have never left Winterfell since there was nothing in KL but duty), it's also equally unjustiifed to argue that he has never done the opposite. Ned isn't as simple as all that; he has both put honor above family at times and family above honor at times. If you believe R + L = J, he has willingly took on the shame of adultery, and he has also willingly confessed to treason. He rose up and rebelled against Aerys Targaryen, his monarch, even though that was probably considered illegal.

I wouldn't call it selfish, messed up if you think trying to save a woman and her three innocent children is dumb <_<

There were better ways to do that though. Ideally, Ned should have arrested Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen and bundled them onto a ship to Lannisport, or the Free Cities, or something (this isn't a perfect plan either, but it would keep them safe). Hoping that Cersei would voluntarily go quietly was a huge mistake; he believes that she is an adulteress and suspects that she has tried to murder his son at least twice now. Why would he trust that she would just meekly accept defeat now when she has never demonstrated that trait before?

I respect Ned's motives but it's also important to look at his actions too. Trying to protect Cersei and her children was a good thing to do but he should have never left the move up to her because based on his past experience with her it's more likely that she'll stay and fight rather than flee.

[mrunderhill]

I wouldn't call it selfish, messed up if you think trying to save a woman and her three innocent children is dumb <_<

I would say it was ridiculously naive and short sighted though. But then again so was Cersei's; her whole plan was dependent on a 15 year old boy.

The downfall of House Stark lies solely on the shoulders of Robb Stark and his penis

Cersei is guilty of several crimes and he believes she killed Jon Arryn and tried to kill Bran. Sparing her from punishment is Ned being sexist. He thought, because she was a woman without her men around she was powerless and he paid for it. He would not have done the same for Jaime or Tywin.

[mrunderhill]

Regarding your first points; I have to agree with you. Never looked at it like that. But I still feel that he could have told Catelyn when he first realised the difficulties she had accepting Jon and how this effected Jon. If he made Catelyn swear it, she would have kept her oath, knowing her.

I am not sure and Ned does not seem to think so. It's a big risk to take when apart from Catelyn being cold to Jon, things were fine for the most part.

I'm not sure how you justify that statement. For example by working to expose Cersei's incest and declaring Stannis the true heir, he both endangered his family and destroyed their opportunity to become royalty. He knew that declaring Joffrey and co. illegitimate would cause serious conflict if not outright war, yet he did so anyway out of principle. He knew that in doing so, any chances that Sansa would become queen evaporated, yet he continued regardless. That is putting honor over family.

There are more important things than just climbing up the social ladder. Joffrey was not the kind of son-in-law he hoped for. War is terrible, but letting tyrants usurp power is worse. Ned had a responsibility to do the right thing.

Though he had planned for his children to be safely away. They were hours from being taken back to Winterfell and he believed he had the City Watch. He was naive and stupid, but he thought he had protected his daughters.

Contrast that to the Lannisters, who famously put family above all else. Tywin would have done whatever was necessary to advance his family position, including lying about Joffrey's sire and supporting the status quo without scruples.

Ned put family above everything else when he confessed that he was a traitor and Joffrey was the true king.

[TheMysteriousOne]

:bs:

Why don't you actually attempt disprove my post, instead of just calling it bs?

[Groat]

Two points I would like to adress;

The first is Ned's choice to keep the secret about Jon from Catelyn. He knew this made her very uncomfortable and even ashamed, to have her Lord husband's bastard growing up before her eyes.

Assuming that R+L=J is true, he could have told his wife and made her swear to keep it a secret. This way Catelyn would not be miserable for all those years, and neither would Jon.

He chose to keep his promise to Lyanna, knowing the effects it would have/had on Catelyn and Jon.

I would like to point out that, in my honest opinion, I have just stated facts up untill now, and not given any judgement, just facts and possibilities.

Sorry but I would hardly called the above strictly facts, your opinion is pretty thick. Catelyn was never "uncomfortable" or "ashamed" about Jon Snow. She even says that she hardly knew Ned when they were married and if Ned sought comfort in another woman's bed before battle, she fully understood that. What Cat did not apreciate, was Ned parading Jon around as an equal to Robb, and the potential of Jon infringing on the rights of the younger, trueborn children. Catelyn was never miserable about this, and Jon could hardly be described as miserable. He has a chip on his shoulder about being a bastard, but is not what I would call miserable. The fact that Ned never told Cat caused a slight resentment in Cat, that she transfered to Jon, but in the grand scheme of things I don't believe it made a big difference. The worst thing Jon had to deal with was indifference and the lack of a mother in his life. Jon would need to be raised a bastard either way, unless you are suggesting Ned should have told his Targaryen heritage from day one.

The second is Ned's choice to refuse both Renly Baratheon and Littlefinger when he already confronted Cersei about her bastard-children. First he chose not to bother his friend Robert on his deathbed with the ugly truth, then he rejected Renly's offer to take the crown, saying that he does not want to frighten children in the night.

After Robert died, when he meant to overthrow Joffrey and Cersei and do 'the honorable thing', he rejected Littlefingers offer to leave things be for the moment and keep the peace.

During all this, he knew his daughters were closeby and especially Sansa was in Cersei's clutches.

Sansa was not in Cersei's clutches. She was smitten with Joffrey.

Now, for my opinion: I think it is rather selfish to hold your own values and honor so highly, when you can see the effect it has or can have.

I agree, and it's a good thing Ned puts his family above his honor, as he has proven on several occasions.

Personally (regarding my first point) I think GRRM made Ned not tell Catelyn, is because she would have thought of the details in her POV, and therefore she had to be in the dark).

Sure it served the plot, but there are very practical reasons for not telling Catelyn as others have pointed out, such as the fact that it would remain a secret, and it ensures both Jon's and Cat's safety.

Regarding my second point; I can respect and even approve of his decision not to tell Robert about his non-children on his deathbed. It would not have made such a big difference, anyway, I think, with Cersei already rising to power.

However, I think Ned is a naive fool for turning down two opportunities to get out of King's Landing to bring his daughters to safety.

If he would have taken Renly's offer and overthrow Cersei and her children, sure; they would have to deal with Jaime (but I think ser Barristan would have been able to deal with him, or Ned himself) and later Tywin would have raised his banners, but they would have been able to beat an incoming Tywin Lannister with the full support of King's Landing, the Stormlands, Riverlands and the North, I reckon.

Here is where I agree with you and this is probably more to do with plot than anything else. I, too, find it a little strange that Ned refused Renly's offer because he "didn't want to scare children". It's a weak agrument for Ned to make, considering the current danger he and his children are in. The only thing in Ned's defense is the fact that Renly was preparing a coup to sieze power, and would have eventually executed the children, so Ned did, in a way, continued to protect them. Perhaps Ned subconsciously picked something up from Renly, and the way Renly stated his intentions just did not appeal to Ned, considering his opinions on Rhaegar's murdered children.

If he would have taken Littlefinger's offer and pledge fealty to Joffrey, he would ofcourse have done something that goes against everything he believed in. But it would have meant his daughters would be safe, it would have meant no war. The Lannisters would still be in charge, ofcourse, and his life would be in danger, but there would be ways to solve that.

I even think he and Cersei could have worked things out that he resigned as Hand, returned home as Warden of the North with both his daughters, Cersei would have made sure the betrothal would have been canceled in some way.

You forget, these are the people who threw Bran out a window and hired a sellsword to assassinate Bran in his bed. His family was not safe even when there was no war. By standing up to the Lannisters, he was in all reality protecting the interests of his family, and war would actually ensure their safety in a scenario like this. I cannot agree that Ned's decision to not take LF advice was selfish and would result in the safety of his children.

But.. Our dearest Ned chose to follow his sense of honor in both points, regardless of the consequenses..

Now my question to you; am I the only one to deem this naive, stupid and most of al: selfish?

Would love your thoughts.

Naive, perhaps there is an arguement there, though personally I would never describe Ned that way. Stupid and selfish are just cheap shots and not a reflection of Ned's character.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Ned needed to protect Jon, he couldn't tell anyone about Jon's true identity or Robert would be mad he was hiding a ''Dragon's spawn''

His honor led him to his grave, that's for sure, but he tried to take his family away, Sansa is guilty for not wanting to go away, she was in love with scumbag Joffrey

The only thing I can say Ned did wrong was telling Cersei he knew about her children's real origin.

But never say Ned was not thinking on his family, he always did

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Ned needed to protect Jon, he couldn't tell anyone about Jon's true identity or Robert would be mad he was hiding a ''Dragon's spawn''

Ok so what does he do about the people who might know about the secret. Like howland reed or the woman who birthed Jon? Nothing! He never spared a single thought about them at all.

As for OP: I believe that the only serious mistake Ned ever made was to give cercei a chance to live. That was against the law and honor. That was just plain mercy. He thought that there might some humanity left in cercie and that was a mistake.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Ok so what does he do about the people who might know about the secret. Like howland reed or the woman who birthed Jon? Nothing! He never spared a single thought about them at all.

As for OP: I believe that the only serious mistake Ned ever made was to give cercei a chance to live. That was against the law and honor. That was just plain mercy. He thought that there might some humanity left in cercie and that was a mistake.

Howland Reed was his most loyal friend and bannerman and the woman who gave birth to him was Lyanna, she's dead, what more had he needed to do?

Howland Reed will show up and explain all this mystery, I'm sure

[Winterz]

This is plain silly.

If Ned had revealed Jon's true origins (presuming he really isn't Ned's bastard) it would've gone bad to the Starks and besides, he lied by saying that he had betrayed Catelyn so he's clearly sacrificing his honor here for his family and House. After all, Lyanna did say.. Promise me

Ultimately, Ned was given the choice of safety for his daughters or his Honor and he chose his daughter's safety knowing full well that his honor would be wrongfully tainted since then and he'd probably die as a result.

So mind explaining how the heck has Ned put honor above family?

[aceluby]

Cersei is guilty of several crimes and he believes she killed Jon Arryn and tried to kill Bran. Sparing her from punishment is Ned being sexist. He thought, because she was a woman without her men around she was powerless and he paid for it. He would not have done the same for Jaime or Tywin.

He did it for her children. He knew that if Robert found out he would kill the children and Ned has shown time and time again his distaste for killing children.

Ned almost always puts family first. He was going to refuse Robert until Bran fell from the tower, because if he refused it could be worse for the family. He never cared about his family being 'royalty' as someone said, so it's a moot point. Lyanna is his family as much as anyone else, and he sacrificed his honor for her. Regarding the succession, yes, he refused to lie about the pretender king and wouldn't put a different pretender king in his place because he didn't think it was right. But let's not forget that it was the double cross by LF that put his daughter's in danger and never expected his family to be put in danger. That's like blaming the person driving the car for being car jacked. He also sacrificed his honor and bent the knee to protect his daughters. Now thinking about it, I can't think of a time where there was a decision he made where he conciously chose his honor over his family.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Howland Reed was his most loyal friend and bannerman and the woman who gave birth to him was Lyanna, she's dead, what more had he needed to do?

Howland Reed will show up and explain all this mystery, I'm sure

More loyal then cat? I don't think so. And I am talking about midwife who supposedly delivered Jon.

[Mad Monkey]

What if Ned had Howland Reed and the midwife killed? Completely implausible and out-of-character? Certainly, but not moreso than the idea that Ned has never sacrificed honor even once for the sake of his family.

[Thorion2]

Ned Stark was the epitome of a family man and a honorable man. He was only guilty of misjudgement.

First off, the promise to protect Jon was made to a family member - his sister. That is, assuming Jon is a Targaryen (which I believe he is). If that secret was revealed there was more at risk than his and Jon's life. If they were not executed as accomplices, his family would still lose all lands and titles. Robert's three passions after Lyanna's death were drinking, womanizing and the complete extermination of the Targaryen bloodline. Ned's friendship would not spare his family from Robert's wrath. With all that at risk, the prudent thing was to minimize the knowledge. The best way to keep a secret is keep it yourself. So he tarnished his reputation, faced his lady's scorn and kept the dying wish of a beloved sibling while protecting his family.

He warned Cersei to protect her children, not her. He misjudged her resolve at this point. But Robert was still alive and he knew she couldn't make any open moves against him and his family. They were relatively safe. Well, safer here, under his care, then they would be in Winterfell.

After Robert's death, he turned down Renly because he didn't want to make it appear as a coup. Which it might have been. Renly needed the word of the Hand to move his armies into the castle. Afterwards, Renly would have had the power to take the throne and he was saving the throne for who he believed to be the rightful ruler - Stannis. A real measure of honor since there really wasn't any feelings of goodwill between him and Stannis. Besides, he put all his faith in the dying proclamation of the King. His last and fatal mistake for him. Before this, however, he deemed it safer to move his family back to Winterfell, not realizing how fast Cersei would make her move. His second misjudgement.

In the end, he chose to totally dishonor his name in the hopes of saving his family. He was going to keep to his honor and rot in prison until he was given this option. I can't see where he did anything selfish or against his family except to falsely misjudge the honor and trustworthiness of those around him.

[conon394]

The first is Ned's choice to keep the secret about Jon from Catelyn. He knew this made her very uncomfortable and even ashamed, to have her Lord husband's bastard growing up before her eyes.

Call the whambulance...

Look there are Bastards falling off trees in the books and in fact they mostly get treated worse than in medieval reality (those of High Lords). Its not like Ned was her High School sweat heart or something or Ned elevated Jon above Robb etc. In any case we can be almost certain Jon is his nephew and so is working on the safety of his entire family. The best way to keep a secret is not to tell anyone period. I don't think it is a coincidence given Robert's rage and desire to kill all the Targs that Both Ned and Reed are essentially retired to the North all away social/political contact.

There is clearly no stigma to having Bastards and a well educated Jon is a loyal asset to the Stark house. Had he not been sent to the NW he could easily have become dependable and loyal person to send on dangerous jobs thus buffering Cat's children who with three sons she cannot have any real worry about Jon usurping the seat of Winterfell. Compare Bolton's treatment of Ramsey... Also Cat can hardly have been unaware of Brandon's personality - is one singular bastard raised at home worse than the line of bastard kids rivaling Robert Brandon seems likely to have sired? Sorry Cat is petty and her attitude is rally out of step with the world she is raised in - she is likely the source for Sansa's silly romantic fantasy life before King's landing. Oh and wait who rushed down to Kings Landing in person - Cat (because you know Ned trusted none of his staff we see that chapter after chapter - not; and oh wait it's not like Cat is lady of Wintefell with a job to do...) , who convinces her Ned to trust LF - Cat, yep its a good thing Ned kept his lips sealed she likely would have blurted that out as well.

Assuming that R+L=J is true, he could have told his wife and made her swear to keep it a secret. This way Catelyn would not be miserable for all those years, and neither would Jon.

He chose to keep his promise to Lyanna, knowing the effects it would have/had on Catelyn and Jon.

Not really because that would change how she acted, which as she does provides perfect cover. That Cat chose to be vindictive and petty in the extreme is no fault of Ned but her own.

The second is Ned's choice to refuse both Renly Baratheon and Littlefinger when he already confronted Cersei about her bastard-children. First he chose not to bother his friend Robert on his deathbed with the ugly truth, then he rejected Renly's offer to take the crown, saying that he does not want to frighten children in the night.

After Robert died, when he meant to overthrow Joffrey and Cersei and do 'the honorable thing', he rejected Littlefingers offer to leave things be for the moment and keep the peace.

During all this, he knew his daughters were closeby and especially Sansa was in Cersei's clutches.

I think you are confusing the 'honorable and stupid Ned stereotype' for legality.

GRRM does what he does, and in this let's be clear Ned may have his faults but he does not sacrifice his family. In fact he resigned and was leaving KL by ship with his household. Its only LF whom he now sort of maybe trusts due to Cat's inane blundering and his horse breaking his leg that he is stuck and out of action for long so has to loose the initiative.

Yes he rejected both Renly and LF as he should have they were proposing what amounts to unlawful power graps and ones they would both have an edge in over Ned.

Sure he did not tell Robert as he was dying but why bother? He altered the document to his need and that was all he would have had anyway. Before that he did not have all the pieces in place and knew form experience with he interrogation of Arya he could no longer count on Robert 100%. The reality is with Stannis absent Ned was always doomed since he never had time to set up shop and lost the one partner (and swords) who would have the evidence and provide political backing to do everything from sweep away LF and his corruption and break the Lannister lock on the court.

After Robert's death, he turned down Renly because he didn't want to make it appear as a coup. Which it might have been. Renly needed the word of the Hand to move his armies into the castle. Afterwards, Renly would have had the power to take the throne and he was saving the throne for who he believed to be the rightful ruler - Stannis.

Umm that a stretch seeing as Renly claimed the Throne fro himself

A real measure of honor since there really wasn't any feelings of goodwill between him and Stannis. Besides, he put all his faith in the dying proclamation of the King. His last and fatal mistake for him. Before this, however, he deemed it safer to move his family back to Winterfell, not realizing how fast Cersei would make her move. His second misjudgement.

Again his whole Cat (the biter and stupid) inspired trust of LF and broken leg caused that. Again here Ned is critically harmed by Stannis really. Ned and Stannis might not be friends but had Stannis pointed out the exposed corruption in the gold cloaks Ned might well have used his authority to sweep out it leadership and say instal Jorry. In that case Ned's plan actually works...

[Pikachu101]

Cersei is guilty of several crimes and he believes she killed Jon Arryn and tried to kill Bran. Sparing her from punishment is Ned being sexist. He thought, because she was a woman without her men around she was powerless and he paid for it. He would not have done the same for Jaime or Tywin.

His priority was saving Cersei's kids and he thought because she was a parent she'd put her kids first. Sexism has nothing to do with it

[Minsc]

Also Cat can hardly have been unaware of Brandon's personality - is one singular bastard raised at home worse than the line of bastard kids rivaling Robert Brandon seems likely to have sired? Sorry Cat is petty and her attitude is rally out of step with the world she is raised in

It isn't an either-or situation of her accepting a ton of bastards or accepting Jon living with her and her trueborn children in their home. Moreover, the reality of the situation she lived normally dicated that the father foster his bastard away and not force him into his wife's imediate vicinity. Especially, without him providing any explantion or even telling her the mother's name.

Umm that a stretch seeing as Renly claimed the Throne fro himself

Renly wasn't initially attempting to seize the throne for himself.

[conon394]

It isn't an either-or situation of her accepting a ton of bastards or accepting Jon living with her and her trueborn children in their home. Moreover, the reality of the situation she lived normally dicated that the father foster his bastard away and not force him into his wife's imediate vicinity. Especially, without him providing any explantion or even telling her the mother's name.

Why? Again the sympathy Cat seems to flow out of some assumption that this was wonder romantic self choice match. It was not Cat was to marry Brandon and then when he got himself killed she got married to Ned (and like her Sansa she was disappointed being all romantically besotted with Ned's brother). Ned is the Lord of Winterfell and if he wants his bastard to be at Winterfell its really not Cat's problem. He neither screws around nor supplants her own children - again her bitterness is out of proportion to the reality - is it really better to know your husband is screwing every wench in reach just as long as you don't see his bastards? Second as I said the fact Roose takes in Ramsey calls into question if Ned's actions are all that unusual (and Walder Rivers is well integrated into the Frey household). Also there is no indication Ned ever slights his own children for his 'bastard' Jon is not included at the high table when Robert visits.

Why should he tell Cat anything its not like she is all gushy and open about what kind of relationship she or her sister might or might not have had with LF

[Minsc]

Why? Again the sympathy Cat seems to flow out of some assumption that this was wonder romantic self choice match. It was not Cat was to marry Brandon and then when he got himself killed she got married to Ned. Ned is the Lord of Winterfell and he he wants his bastard to be at Winterfell its really not Cat's problem. He neither screws around nor supplants her own children - again her bitterness is out of proportion to the reality - is really better to know your husband is screwing every wench in reach just as long as you don't see his bastards? second as I said the fact Roose takes in Ramsey calls into question if Ned's actions are all that unusual (and Walder Rivers is well integrated into the Frey household).

Why should he tell Cat anything its not she is all gushy and open about what kind of relationship she or her sister might or might not have had with LF

Again it isn't an either-or situation. She doesn't have to either accept her husband repeating cheating on her or the pressence of bastard living with her trueborn children.

Roose ditched Ramsay with his mother and Reek until Ramsay killed his trueborn son, thus meaning Roose needed a heir and Ramsay was his only option.

Catelyn's relationship with LF was that she saw him as a little brother, something that she mentions to Ned openly. Next, I don't see how Lysa and LF's relationship has any connection to Cat and Ned's relationship that she needs to share it with him (especially seeing how she doesn't know the full story about their connection).

[juanml82]

I am not sure and Ned does not seem to think so. It's a big risk to take when apart from Catelyn being cold to Jon, things were fine for the most part.

There are more important things than just climbing up the social ladder. Joffrey was not the kind of son-in-law he hoped for. War is terrible, but letting tyrants usurp power is worse. Ned had a responsibility to do the right thing.

Though he had planned for his children to be safely away. They were hours from being taken back to Winterfell and he believed he had the City Watch. He was naive and stupid, but he thought he had protected his daughters.

Ned put family above everything else when he confessed that he was a traitor and Joffrey was the true king.

Ned never considered Joffrey's personality, or Stannis' for that matter, in the question of succession. All that mattered to him is that Joffrey is a bastard, nothing else.

Ned Stark was the epitome of a family man and a honorable man. He was only guilty of misjudgement.

First off, the promise to protect Jon was made to a family member - his sister. That is, assuming Jon is a Targaryen (which I believe he is). If that secret was revealed there was more at risk than his and Jon's life. If they were not executed as accomplices, his family would still lose all lands and titles. Robert's three passions after Lyanna's death were drinking, womanizing and the complete extermination of the Targaryen bloodline. Ned's friendship would not spare his family from Robert's wrath. With all that at risk, the prudent thing was to minimize the knowledge. The best way to keep a secret is keep it yourself. So he tarnished his reputation, faced his lady's scorn and kept the dying wish of a beloved sibling while protecting his family.

He warned Cersei to protect her children, not her. He misjudged her resolve at this point. But Robert was still alive and he knew she couldn't make any open moves against him and his family. They were relatively safe. Well, safer here, under his care, then they would be in Winterfell.

After Robert's death, he turned down Renly because he didn't want to make it appear as a coup. Which it might have been. Renly needed the word of the Hand to move his armies into the castle. Afterwards, Renly would have had the power to take the throne and he was saving the throne for who he believed to be the rightful ruler - Stannis. A real measure of honor since there really wasn't any feelings of goodwill between him and Stannis. Besides, he put all his faith in the dying proclamation of the King. His last and fatal mistake for him. Before this, however, he deemed it safer to move his family back to Winterfell, not realizing how fast Cersei would make her move. His second misjudgement.

In the end, he chose to totally dishonor his name in the hopes of saving his family. He was going to keep to his honor and rot in prison until he was given this option. I can't see where he did anything selfish or against his family except to falsely misjudge the honor and trustworthiness of those around him.

The text never claims Ned thought following Renly would make it appear as a coup, just that he didn't want to scare children, a decision he soon regrets.