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Dragons and SkinChangers


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19 replies to this topic

#1 Muggle

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 01:27 PM

Did the birth of the dragons make an explosion of skinchangers? Like with other magic seen in the books getting an explosion or a boost?

MY question is, Did the birth of the dragons have an influence on 100% of the stark kids becoming skinchangers?

We see bran being a greenseer, We see Varamyr saying Jon is a "powerful" skin changer. We see rick having the same green dream bran did about ned. We see Arya skinchaning her wolf across the ocean.


Are these powerful traits a result in the dragons? or are they just stark traits?

If dragons have an influence on skinchanging what is the result if a skinchanger has a drop of dragons blood? or perhaps a few buckets?

It is assumed Valryia did not invade the west due to the skin changers.

What does it mean when we have some one from the Old ancient powerful line of valyria mixed with the old ancient line of the first men. And this person has one of the most powerful trait of the first men. I.E a skin changer

We all agree the most two important houses in the books are Stark and Targs.

I guess the real question of this whole thread is, How far will Jon go? In terms of power and importance

Edited by Muggle, 21 July 2013 - 01:28 PM.


#2 The Broke Howard Hughes

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 01:37 PM

Interesting. But correct me if I'm wrong, most of the Stark kids were showing signs of being wargs BEFORE the dragons were born. Bran and Rickon for sure. Arya is up in the air. Sansa doesn't count because we don't really get her viewpoint until after Lady is dead.

#3 Howling Mad

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 01:39 PM

There does not appear to be a correlation between the number of or the power of skinchangers and the rebirth of dragon. All of the Stark siblings exhibited signs of warging their direwolves before the last chapter of AGOT when the dragon first appear. Additonally, skinchangers among the freefolk preceded the dragons e.g. Orell, Varymar, Hagon, the "boar" dude.

ETA - Regarding Sansa keep in mind that all of the direwolves took on the traits of their masters, e.g. Lady was always well behaved and Shaggydog was wild.

Edited by Howling Mad, 21 July 2013 - 01:41 PM.


#4 Muggle

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:04 PM

I just wonder if Jon will warg one of the dragons, Perhaps the white dragon, and how powerful he will become

on another note, can you imagine how powerful bloodraven would of became if he were able to awaken a dragon's egg or come across a dragon?

Edited by Muggle, 21 July 2013 - 02:04 PM.


#5 MaesterSamwell

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:15 PM

I think the focus should be on the return of White Walkers in the world of ASOIAF to the return of other magical creatures (ie skinchangers and dragons). I think that the return of the White Walkers (at least in great force) was the driving force between other magical creatures returning to the world. To everyone else, White Walkers were a story Old Nan (or people like her) told. There was evidence that they had existed, but nothing concrete. I think the dragons and wargs will be needed to defeat the White Walkers

#6 Muggle

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:26 PM

So your saying its not the dragons that boost magical power but the return of the white walkers?

The white walkers are the ultimate evil. a cancer on the world, And the world rejects them by boosting the magical powers of the other magical creatures. And also in doing so re introducing the fabled power of those in the age of heroes?

Thus the reborn of the prince, the stallion, Azhorhai, " which i think are all separate interpretations of the same person from different views / religions"

Make sense and i like it

#7 Mehmet Eren

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:56 PM

I think Bran is winged wolf and it means more than crow , I think he will warg into dragon but this is my opinion Also for Other I recently read nice post which I agree in shortly There must be always Stark in WF and Winter is coming is hit on deal between Stark( first man ) and the White Walkers so far Bran a greenseer and he has unlimited(unknown) powers he can see future 1000s eyes 100s skins , I assume White Walkers will have similar power so they know that deal is broken and Stark loose WF and they prepare for attack ....Last but not least Dragon has positive effect on magic so Greenseer is some kind magic so maybe dragon increase the power of greenseer and wargs .....

sorry for my english....

#8 MaesterSamwell

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 03:07 PM

So your saying its not the dragons that boost magical power but the return of the white walkers?

The white walkers are the ultimate evil. a cancer on the world, And the world rejects them by boosting the magical powers of the other magical creatures. And also in doing so re introducing the fabled power of those in the age of heroes?

Thus the reborn of the prince, the stallion, Azhorhai, " which i think are all separate interpretations of the same person from different views / religions"

Make sense and i like it

That is my base argument. I also think Bran was led by the three-eyed crow to him to replace Brynden and be the new watchdog for when magic needs to return. I think the three-eyed crow is kind of the key that sees when magic needs to return and puts things in place (like having Bloodraven send the direwolf south of the wall to awaken the warging ability of the Starks. I do not have a wholly thought on theory about how the Three-eyed crow brought on the dragons, but I definitely think he had some kind of influence there.

#9 Ser Greg of House House

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:38 PM

I think there's no direct connection. Northern westerosi ice magic seems to be different from dragon fire magic. But... It could be that there's a relation to a harsh winter, white walkers etc. And that both of the magics are connected in a struggle or whatever.

But I don't think the connection is as direct as it is with obsidian candles etc.

#10 revenant6

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 08:07 PM

Disclaimer - this post has no evidence.

MY question is, Did the birth of the dragons have an influence on 100% of the stark kids becoming skinchangers?
-Probably not, as previously mentioned. There were plenty of skinchangers before. Then again, 6 warg-kids with direwolves coming onto the seen seems like a "surge" in magic, too. Perhaps an increase in cold-oriented magic increased the fire magic (dragons) on the other side of the equation. I think the surge in magic also lit the glass candles.

It is assumed Valryia did not invade the west due to the skin changers. If by West, you mean the North, I think you have a good point.

What does it mean when we have some one from the Old ancient powerful line of valyria mixed with the old ancient line of the first men. And this person has one of the most powerful trait of the first men. I.E a skin changer? So far, it looks like we end up with Bloodraven and potentially Lord Commander Snow - two pretty cool characters.

So your saying its not the dragons that boost magical power but the return of the white walkers? I've been under the assumption that the Others and Dragons are 2 sides to the same equation. I also think that the return of magic (or surge in magical things, i.e. Others and Dragons) is somehow linked to the seasons.

The white walkers are the ultimate evil. a cancer on the world, And the world rejects them by boosting the magical powers of the other magical creatures.
I think George has something else up his sleeve with the WW. With the exception of Ramsay and Gregor, nothing seems as cut and dry as good v. evil. I have a hunch that neither the Dragons or Others or good or evil, just 2 sides of the same coin.

And for what it's worth - I totally think that Bran and maybe other Starks will warg dragons. I think it would be too awesome not to happen. Then again, I really am just expecting the unexpected.

#11 The Mountain That Flies

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 08:37 PM

Then again, 6 warg-kids with direwolves coming onto the seen seems like a "surge" in magic, too. Perhaps an increase in cold-oriented magic increased the fire magic (dragons) on the other side of the equation. I think the surge in magic also lit the glass candles.


I thought it was stated somewhere in AFFC (by Marwyn, presumably) that it was specifically the return of the dragons that re-lit the glass candles. The Stark kids all being wargs would imply the warg gene is present in anyone with Stark DNA, but it requires some kind of a kick.

It is assumed Valryia did not invade the west due to the skin changers.


Then did Aegon the Conqueror just forget about this problem, or did he have some kind of counter measure?

I think George has something else up his sleeve with the WW. With the exception of Ramsay and Gregor, nothing seems as cut and dry as good v. evil. I have a hunch that neither the Dragons or Others or good or evil, just 2 sides of the same coin.


/agree.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':agree:' /> The Others have been presented in such basic terms thus far there has to be a twist to them. Whether they're Children of the Forest that rejected the Pact, a pre-Children race of Westeros, or something else entirely, there are too many unanswered questions regarding their existence.

#12 revenant6

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 08:52 PM

I thought it was stated somewhere in AFFC (by Marwyn, presumably) that it was specifically the return of the dragons that re-lit the glass candles. The Stark kids all being wargs would imply the warg gene is present in anyone with Stark DNA, but it requires some kind of a kick.


Yeah - I think you're right. What I was thinking (and not writing or conveying well at all) is that dragons rebirth lit the candles, but perhaps that dragons rebirth in the fire was somehow linked/precipitated to the return of Winter and the Others.

This begs at least 2 questions:

1) What comes first, the Winter that brings the Others or do the Others bring the Long Winter?
2) I realize that Dany's roasting of Mirri Maz Dur is largely attributed to the dragon's birth. But could this also be tied/linked to the return of the Others/Winter? Is sacrifice linked with the return of magic? Now that I think of it - Dany sacrifices Mirri and gets dragons. Craster sacrifices his sons and we get - Others? Ancient Starks (or so I presume from Bran's dream thru the weirwood) sacrifice peeps - but to what end?

Sorry. Rambling.

#13 Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 08:54 PM

I believe only one will get skinchanged, GRRM said one dragon rider doesn't necessarily have to be a targaryen, I am guessing it will be Dany, tyrion, jon or dany, tyrion,bran. Either Bran or Jon will warg a dragon not both, I have always had a feeling tyrion would ride a dragon and Dany was already riding Drogon in the last book.

#14 Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:01 PM

Yeah - I think you're right. What I was thinking (and not writing or conveying well at all) is that dragons rebirth lit the candles, but perhaps that dragons rebirth in the fire was somehow linked/precipitated to the return of Winter and the Others.

This begs at least 2 questions:

1) What comes first, the Winter that brings the Others or do the Others bring the Long Winter?
2) I realize that Dany's roasting of Mirri Maz Dur is largely attributed to the dragon's birth. But could this also be tied/linked to the return of the Others/Winter? Is sacrifice linked with the return of magic? Now that I think of it - Dany sacrifices Mirri and gets dragons. Craster sacrifices his sons and we get - Others? Ancient Starks (or so I presume from Bran's dream thru the weirwood) sacrifice peeps - but to what end?

Sorry. Rambling.

Others were there in the prologue before Dany hatched her eggs,
I think glass candles need dragons to work but not magic.
I believe magic was already there, just that people were not practising it, since Dany basically used blood magic to give her dragon eggs life.
I think thats what all targaryens before Dany didn't know, you don't just need fire to hatch dragon eggs you need both "fire and blood"

Edited by Queen_Alysanne, 21 July 2013 - 09:04 PM.


#15 The Mountain That Flies

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:24 PM

1) What comes first, the Winter that brings the Others or do the Others bring the Long Winter?


I would think the Others bring the Long Winter. It always gets colder before they arrive, and given that the lack of dragons is said to cause shorter summers, implying dragons bring summer, Others being their opposite would bring winter.

#16 Morienthar

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:42 PM

I think the magic of the north and the magic of the south and/or East are completely different as there were already a few skinchangers we know of before the birth of the Dragons like Six Skins.

#17 The Last Lion

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:52 PM

I think you have to relax a little bit on trying to define scientific rules when it comes to magic in Westeros. Not to break the 4th wall, but Martin wings it a bit when it comes to the rules around magic. He's definitely implied that "magic" is "returning" with the dragons, but it is also clear the wargs and some wizards where pulling off some serious supernatural skills for a while before Dany's pier. I think the standards are kind of loose to fit the needs of the plot, tbh.

#18 revenant6

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 06:14 PM

I think you have to relax a little bit on trying to define scientific rules when it comes to magic in Westeros. Not to break the 4th wall, but Martin wings it a bit when it comes to the rules around magic. He's definitely implied that "magic" is "returning" with the dragons, but it is also clear the wargs and some wizards where pulling off some serious supernatural skills for a while before Dany's pier. I think the standards are kind of loose to fit the needs of the plot, tbh.


I think you're probably right.

But. It's. So. Hard. Not. To. Categorize. Must... Understand!

I guess it's a win-win for me, though. I can try to fit it into a neat little box, but it's fun to realize I'll never figure magic out - cause, it's like, magic.

I find myself trying to over analyze all of George's information then instantly telling myself to just accept and enjoy it.

Still fun to speculate on, though.

#19 revenant6

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 06:16 PM

Others were there in the prologue before Dany hatched her eggs,
I think glass candles need dragons to work but not magic.
I believe magic was already there, just that people were not practising it, since Dany basically used blood magic to give her dragon eggs life.
I think thats what all targaryens before Dany didn't know, you don't just need fire to hatch dragon eggs you need both "fire and blood"


That's an awesome catch. I like it. A lot.

#20 lifefullofwords

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 07:35 PM

Interesting question. I've always assumed that magic, for unknown reasons, is in the process of returning to Weteros and Essos. The reappearance of the White Walkers, the Stark kids finding the direwolves, and Dani acquiring dragons are all, in my mind, part of this.

It is assumed Valryia did not invade the west due to the skin changers.


That makes a lot of sense but is there any evidence for it in the books? Just curious.


I think George has something else up his sleeve with the WW. With the exception of Ramsay and Gregor, nothing seems as cut and dry as good v. evil. I have a hunch that neither the Dragons or Others or good or evil, just 2 sides of the same coin.


You should probably take what I have to say with a grain of salt since when it comes to predicting what's going to happen in the books my track record is horrendous. With that said, I think The Others are fundamentally different from human beings. Martin recognizes that the vast majority people are neither good nor evil but instead lie somewhere in between. The White Walkers, on the other hand, are pure evil. I'm sure there's a twist coming, though, there always is.

I think thats what all targaryens before Dany didn't know, you don't just need fire to hatch dragon eggs you need both "fire and blood"


That's a very interesting idea!