CDC Study: Use of Firearms For Self-Defense is ‘Important Crime Deterrent’

[Seli]

I do think it the numbers showing guns deter criminals and protect citizens is a major challenge for those who claim anyone having guns is adding to the problem.

The problem with that bit is that you'd actually need an idea how many of those situations would have resulted in deterrence in the absence of guns. In that respect the apparent lower risk of using guns would result in a better argument.

Suicide by firearms is a bit complicated - I'm not 100% convinced that all those people would find another way to kill themselves. (I'm similarly unconvinced that people who do violence in the name religion would find some other excuse.)

There is a clear correlation between the number of guns and the number of suicides (within the US, and Canada if I remember the sources correctly). So there is a good indication that not all people killing themselves with guns would die if they did not have access. There is even a mechanism that explains this, guns are highly effective, and easy to get. (and it is one of the clearly medical issues)

Of this is not something easily solved by licensing schemes or background checks.

[Free Northman]

The problem with that bit is that you'd actually need an idea how many of those situations would have resulted in deterrence in the absence of guns. In that respect the apparent lower risk of using guns would result in a better argument.

There is a clear correlation between the number of guns and the number of suicides (within the US, and Canada if I remember the sources correctly). So there is a good indication that not all people killing themselves with guns would die if they did not have access. There is even a mechanism that explains this, guns are highly effective, and easy to get. (and it is one of the clearly medical issues)

Of this is not something easily solved by licensing schemes or background checks.

Look, I truly don't understand why suicides are even relevant in this discussion and this is something which no one has been able to provide a satisfactory answer on as far as I'm concerned on all the gazillions of previous threads on this matter.

[Seli]

Look, I truly don't understand why suicides are even relevant in this discussion and this is something which no one has been able to provide a satisfactory answer on as far as I'm concerned on all the gazillions of previous threads on this matter.

Fairly simple, it is an important cause of death for some demographics, and that is one of the areas the CDC ought to be interested in. Yes, that hardly fits into the the loud aspects of the gun control discussion. But it ought to be an important aspect of a culture promoting responsible gun ownership, which is in everyone's interest I imagine.

[Sturn]

I mean, in general the report seems to be more about assessing what type of research needs to be done. It's not actually research itself. It's basically saying "We have determined/decided that these are the important areas that need to be studied and questions that need to be answered".

At the cost of $10 million taxpayers' dollars? Way to go team CDC-Obama.

[Seli]

At the cost of $10 million taxpayers' dollars? Way to go team CDC-Obama.

As long as they follow up, or even decide not to do anything anymore due to this overview, it seems relatively cheap for a field this large.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

How can defensive firearm use be studied properly when many (if not most) defensive uses (where no injuries result) go unreported?

[Seli]

How can defensive firearm use be studied properly when many defensive uses (where no injuries result) often go unreported?

Give them another 10 million and they might have a start of an answer :P

Sociology probably has all the tools to figure something out.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Seli,

I'm curious to see what those methods would be. This is a hard question for example to the gun owner if they pull their weapon and the person targeted flees they think it is a successful defensive use without injuries. How do we know the person targeted ever ment to attack?

[The Iceman of the North]

How can defensive firearm use be studied properly when many (if not most) defensive uses (where no injuries result) go unreported?

Through surveys? This is really not that hard at all, there's plenty of research that can be done without going through crime reports. You just have to send out a questionnaire to enough people asking them about their own personal experiences.

[sologdin]

wasn't ther someone who went through self-defnse affidavits and determined that many of the alleged aggressions subject to firearm "defense" do not rise even to assault, which makes the firearm usage therein the moment of initial aggression by jittery paranoids for whom the most trifling social interaction provokes a visceral crisis?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Iceman,

Please see my edit.

Sologdin,

Exactly.

[Commodore]

Been looking into acquiring a firearm for self/home defense.

Seems like in order to use a handgun effectively in a panic situation you really need to practice with it alot. A shotgun OTOH...

Of course, if you are looking for defense outside the home, you can't walk around with a shotgun unless your name is Omar.

The Armed Citizen Project is attempting to distribute free shotguns (with prior training) in high crime neighborhoods to see what impact it has.

http://armedcitizenproject.org/about

The Armed Citizen Project is dedicated to facilitating the arming of law abiding citizens, and analyzing the relationship between increased firearm availability and rates. We are choosing mid-high crime neighborhoods in cities across America, and offering defensive weapons to citizens that can pass a background check, and that will take our safety, legal, and tactical training. The data that we collect will be used in the completion of a policy study that will measure the deterrent effects of firearms on crime...

...All participants that wish to receive a weapon, and take our training, will receive a shotgun. There are many reasons for us to use this type of weapon, and it will be our standard weapon of use. They are easy to use, less expensive than other weapons, and effective against intruders. Additionally, every shotgun will come equipped with a lock, that can be locked behind the trigger, thus leaving the weapon inoperable to those that are not authorized to use the weapon.

[Free Northman]

Commodore

I would assume they are going for 20 gauge shotguns, then. Plenty lethal enough for defensive purposes, but with something like 50% less recoil than a 12 gauge, which can be difficult to handle for some.

[Sci-2]

The problem with that bit is that you'd actually need an idea how many of those situations would have resulted in deterrence in the absence of guns. In that respect the apparent lower risk of using guns would result in a better argument.

Ah, good point, I should have included that bit.

wasn't ther someone who went through self-defnse affidavits and determined that many of the alleged aggressions subject to firearm "defense" do not rise even to assault, which makes the firearm usage therein the moment of initial aggression by jittery paranoids for whom the most trifling social interaction provokes a visceral crisis?

Would be interested in seeing this study if anyone can recall the title of the publication.

[Robin Of House Hill]

wasn't ther someone who went through self-defnse affidavits and determined that many of the alleged aggressions subject to firearm "defense" do not rise even to assault, which makes the firearm usage therein the moment of initial aggression by jittery paranoids for whom the most trifling social interaction provokes a visceral crisis?

And if the "someone" had an agenda, would that make that opinion worth more than a pile of shit?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I wonder what's FLoW's take on this? ;)

My take is that it will have virtually no impact on anyone's position, including the Administration's. They'll say that deaths by suicide are still deaths, and that there still wouldn't be as much gun-related violence by criminals if criminals had fewer guns. And you'll have other studies that make those points. There are different aspects to the issue, and each side points to the particular subject area (self defense for gun-rights, homicide/suicide for gun-control) that supports their position.

When you add into that the moral component (the value of the right to protect yourself, etc.) this is not an issue that is ever going to be resolved by dueling studies.

Moreover, opponents are always going to attack the methodology of the other side, and given that the data here is inherently imperfect, and sometimes morally subjective, each side will always have grounds to attack data they don't like.

[Mad Monkey]

If you give m

When you add into that the moral component (the value of the right to protect yourself, etc.) this is not an issue that is ever going to be resolved by dueling studies.

Give me $10,000,000 and I'll take a whack at it.

I guess it's kind of like the "when does life begin?" or "do souls exist?" questions.

[Seli]

Seli,

I'm curious to see what those methods would be. This is a hard question for example to the gun owner if they pull their weapon and the person targeted flees they think it is a successful defensive use without injuries. How do we know the person targeted ever ment to attack?

No idea, I would assume through comparing to situations where no guns where present, after correcting for incidence rate (itself another interesting subject) and other co-founders.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Give me $10,000,000 and I'll take a whack at it.

I don't care if some private entity or advocacy group chooses to spend $10M of its own money on such things. It's when the government does it that I get bothered.

[thecryptile]

Been looking into acquiring a firearm for self/home defense.

Seems like in order to use a handgun effectively in a panic situation you really need to practice with it alot. A shotgun OTOH...

A 12 gauge pump is the premier home defense weapon. Starting with the more economical options: IAC Hawk 12 gauge pump with ghost ring sights.

Or this, a little more expensive- the

Mossberg 500 Roadblocker with Barret style muzzle brake:That's what I have, only I took off the pistol grip and replaced it with an AR-15 style six position stock.

Remington's iconic 870 is another good choice (and the most expensive):

They all work, the price differences are mostly a matter of branding. Gun snobs will turn up their noses at the Hawk and Mossberg, while accepting the 870 as an entry level shotgun. Then they will show you their $3000 Benelli semi-auto.

Of course, if you are looking for defense outside the home, you can't walk around with a shotgun unless your name is Omar.

Or you have a .410 gauge handgun like the

Taurus Judge

or S&W Governor. Another good choice for home defense, they also can use 45 Long Colt and the S&W, with moon clips, can use 45 ACP. These aren't California legal unfortunately. While the ATF classifies them as pistols, California considers them short barrel shotguns.

I would assume they are going for 20 gauge shotguns, then. Plenty lethal enough for defensive purposes, but with something like 50% less recoil than a 12 gauge, which can be difficult to handle for some.

They are distributing single-shot break open 20 gauge shotguns IIRC. Break opens are cheap and effective, also they are not really sought after on the "street"; so they are less likely to be stolen. That is a real concern when you are giving them away to low-income families in high crime areas.