Examining Jorahs Treachery

[Sansa_Stark]

Bear Island is more gender equal than most of Westeros and don't really care about male line stuff IIRC

[Ser Greg of House House]

Bear Island is more gender equal than most of Westeros and don't really care about male line stuff IIRC

Oh, my mistake then. I remember they didn't care if women had lovers or something like that, kind of like Dorne. I'll look it up.

[Napyura]

Read Chapter 71 of DwD. Daenerys hallucinating Jorah and admitting to being wrong. In the end, he was not scolded for betraying, but for defying.

[Hedgehog]

Thought about the "what makes it treason" - part again. My biggest grope with Dany at that point is that she never asks the important questions. She never asks "why" and she never asks "what exactly did you write in your reports". She just reacts emotionally without thinking the matter through (and time enough to think it through she would have during Operation Sewers).

Dany's taken some instinctive decisions before, and many of them were good. She's has a kind side to her heart, and basically she wants to do right. She's not capable yet of staying calm and gathering all the facts before making a decision, especially not in a situation where she feels hurt. A good ruler should have that ability - maybe that's more of an item about good rulership than running a big city (or a kingdom, or several kingdoms). She knows somewhere in her heart she isn't there yet, but I doubt she can see what it is she lacks. She takes that "time-out" in Mereen to learn... and continues with rash, emotional reactions... (think I'll have to re-read under that aspect to see if something changes there).

Those two questions would have brought clarity to the issue. I'm really split about whether it was a betrayal or it was even treason or not. By mere technical definition, the *objective* answer is probably "yes" (it makes me cringe but that's the thing about objectivity and subjectivity), on the other hand, from a *subjective* point of view (which in Jorah's case we never get, and he never gets the chance to even makes a statement filtered through Dany's eyes and ears there), the answer may be "no". It very much depends on what he's written in that last report.

Thanks to Dany's rash reaction there's just not enough information. I see three different versions:

1) The last report contained solid information on the state of Dany's army and their plans.

Clearly treason.

2) The last report contained general information ("We've reached Qarth. Khal Drogo has died. Somehow there's now three dragons, yes, live dragons... no, I'm not drunk. Trying to find the means to get back on course to Westeros. Any kind of support you could send would be highly appreciated. Seems we're pretty much stuck otherwise.").

Technically, treason - acting behind your queen's back.

Practically, actually smart. Because for all Jorah knows, he's working for a faction that has so far been supporting the Tagaryen cause. They've even relayed a warning to him about the assassin Robert had sent - Robert, the real enemy, with his lap dog Stark. Staying in contact with them might get Dany's cause further support - and surely enough it doesn't take long for three ships (and unfortunately two more bodyguards) to arrive in Qarth. (By the way, it's strange Dany has never wondered how Illyrio knew exactly where to send the support - Belwas tells her they were to "search for her", but hey, I mean, Essos is a bit... large-ish.) Plus, it keeps you on the "in-side", and insider knowledge is always a good thing. Might enable him to save her from another assassin, and if Illyrio/Varys are crossing them for whatever reason, this might be the one and only way to ever know it before it's too late. (Ironically enough, Jorah seems to have some issues with trusting the people he reports to - after all, the next thing he does is advising Dany to test Illyrio's loyalty to her cause by veering off course and going to Astapor, getting a strong army all for herself - not sponsored by someone whose motivation lies in the dark.)

So that report from Qarth may well have gotten them unstuck. I blame Jorah for not making that more of a point - ultimately, Barristan and he were sent to Dany by the same man, who's been useful to her in the past more than once, to say the least.

Seems the bear has a smart mind but utterly fails his rhetoric rolls from time to time. ;)

3) The last report contained Jorah's announcement he's quit.

Which would've been a stupid thing to do (see above), but in that case, he's completely off the treason hook. Because that would mean that after swearing fealty to Dany, all he's done is telling his former "employer" about his change of mind. Which would be honourable and honest, but immensely stupid. And somehow I think honour isn't Jorah's strong side...

Personally, I think what happened is 2), but as long as there is no confirmation it's only a theory. So maybe that does make it the "betrayal for love" in the light of the "three-betrayal-prophecy"? I've been having my doubts about that prophecy, seeing Dany has already been betrayed a lot more times than thrice, and why would the Undying want to warn her of the future anyway - they want to use her, all they'd be interested in would be to damage Dany's strength and sense of security, undermining any trust in others she has and seeding paranoia to weaken her. But, if there's anything to this prophecy, this would be most fitting for the betrayal of love.

[Ygrain]

I actually don't think 1 & 2 were treasonous against Dany as, if I recall correctly, Jorah's sword was sworn to Viserys rather than Dany. I agree with Dornishman's Wife on 3.

I think were Jorah's behavior as Dany's sworn sword starts to get messy is that he continues to send reports about her to Westeros and keeps silent about it as well as his sexually harrassing behavior. It compromises trust. Can Dany trust a person to offer the best advice when his goals aren't exactly aligned with her own goals?

Still, I don't think Jorah was one of Dany's big treasons. I find him to be pretty icky and not suitable for a top advisor position. I think Dany did the right thing in removing him from that position but I don't seem him as an overtly treacherous person who committed a terrible treason against her.

Agreed, I'd just add yet. I think that he is a top candidate ofr the treason for love.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Agreed, I'd just add yet. I think that he is a top candidate ofr the treason for love.

Absolutely. The only other one I can think of is Barristan if Lemore is Ashara. But that doesn't seem likely. Maybe Daario will do something stupid out of love for her that smacks of betrayal?

[Samwell Gamgi]

Jorah told Dany that he was still sending reports when they were in Qarth. The issue is that he didn't tell her about it. He took it upon himself to decide what information to share. It would be completely different if he told Dany that he had been sending reports or at least explained why controlling what information is shared would be a good thing, but he didn't. None of this means that Jorah wasn't at times very helpful to Dany's cause or that he didn't obey her orders. The point is that trust between the two is completely compromised. From Dany's point of view, Jorah did not exhibit unfailing loyal to her as a queen when he was questioned.

he said he sent ONE report from Carth and she interrupted him before he could say more. For all we know it was a false report or a report to her allies in Westeros (Varys). He was obviously her loyal man at that point and would have died for her.

[Lost Melnibonean]

he said he sent ONE report from Carth and she interrupted him before he could say more. For all we know it was a false report or a report to her allies in Westeros (Varys). He was obviously her loyal man at that point and would have died for her.

He could have said anything, but I'm assuming he reported location, number of retainers & birth of dragons. I suspect he may have asked for a ship to return to Pentos. But sometime between Dany II & Dany III in Clash Jorah decides to try to convince Dany to run away with him to the east and tells her Illyrio would sell her for enough gold.