Superman and Batman

[red snow]

Blame the people who hired him. He is good with visuals, if his only job is to direct a script by Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, Mark Waid, Grant Morrison or someone who understands the character, he would be OK. No deviation allowed, stick to the script.

I agree when he slaves over a script he does a good job (Watchmen required the script to be worked for a film and not just the comic). I thought the same was true with Man of Steel - he probably elevated it to be honest. Then there's sucker punch...

If the guy was put on an intensive screenwriting course we could get some great films in a decade.

Is he though?

I haven't seen Superman but 300 and Watchmen were pretty bad, too shiny and plastic, his movies usually look like video game cut scenes to me.

That's the same reason a lot of people like his style. I think it's better to be love/hate than to be generic though (not from a box office point of view though).

Isn't Green Lantern what happens when you let comic book people write a 200 million dollar movie?

I think it's a bit of both. I really don't agree that letting comic writers make films is a guaranteed success. It either loses something in the translation or winds up being a moving version of the comic (my largest criticism of Watchmen) in which case i've already read the comic.

Green Lantern had the problem of trying to be a bit of everything. They wanted it to be star wars but they also wanted it to be Spider-man. They wanted quips but they also wanted it to be dark. The comic movies that work tend to be the ones where they pick a tone and stick with it eg Nolan's Batman - the first two Spider-man films. It's not possible to make a "representative" Batman or Superman film as they've been many things over the last 70 years. For every Miller Batman fan there are still the Burt West fans.

I can totally understand how people hate Man of Steel Superman but it at least takes a different approach from the Reeve era. 10 years time there'll be another version that may suit a different demographic. To plug the DC animated films again, each release tends to have a different interpretation of Superman/Batman so that's one of the best places to go for moving stories.

[Myrddin]

I don't care for the "vs." in the title because it implies a clash between titans, in which one hasn't been placed in this new DC world.

What flavor of Batman are we talking about here? We've seen 3-4 in the last 20 years on screen.

We don't need another origin story, but we do need some grounding in who Batman is and how he's perceived outside Gotham.

I'd rather he be the guy in the shadows that we don't trust at first (as we'll presumably be looking through Clark's lenses). He is probably known and feared outside Gotham, but no one else has felt his direct influence. Being a suspicious detective (I hope), Batman leaves his home turf and starts figuring out how to stop Superman if needed. The guy just tore apart a whole city without soiling his cape. Using science(!), Batman probably discovers the properties of Kryptonite and keeps the "silver bullet" ready in case.

Meanwhile, Superman is fighting a publicity battle. Half the world calls him a savior and the other half want him killed (crucified). Lex Luthor is positioning himself to a career in Real estate! politics and seeks to either use or discredit Superman for his own ends. Superman is forced into another morally ambiguous decision, where the cameras show him in the wrong light. Batman decides to take him out.

Brain over brawn carnage ensues.

Anyway. That's my off-the-cuff Monday Quarterback approach. :)

I loved MoS and am looking forward to what Goyer and (yes) Snyder have in store for us.

[Batman]

Is he though?

I haven't seen Superman but 300 and Watchmen were pretty bad, too shiny and plastic, his movies usually look like video game cut scenes to me.

I had no complaints with the Man of Steel action fights. The writing? Different story. It was overdone and it was sickening to watch how little Superman cared about the lives of the people of Metropolis but the fight with Zod was badass. Until the end. No slow motion involved.

[Batman]

I agree when he slaves over a script he does a good job (Watchmen required the script to be worked for a film and not just the comic). I thought the same was true with Man of Steel - he probably elevated it to be honest. Then there's sucker punch...

If the guy was put on an intensive screenwriting course we could get some great films in a decade.

I thought Watchmen was pretty good. It was never meant to be a film and he did as well as any director could. Never seen Sucker Punch, word of mouth has been too bad. He cant have everything. Directors are supposed to look like Coppola or Lucas or Spielberg. Snyder looks like he could be acting.

I wonder whether it was him or Goyer who overdid the action. I don't know where to place the blame. They could have spaced it better, it seemed to be all towards the end and it made no sense. Why is Superman not protecting Metropolis? There is no one near that Indian ocean Terra Former machine to get hurt. Why cram in the Zod fight after the Indian ocean battle? Why does Superman not give a fuck about the people? And then there is the resolution.

[Batman]

Isn't Green Lantern what happens when you let comic book people write a 200 million dollar movie?

Those guys were not in the same league as Morrison and Waid.

[Morpheus]

I hated his take on Watchmen, he recreated a lot from the book, but it felt hollow (and IMO mostly looked like shit), it felt off tonally too and from the interviews I read at the time, I really didn't like his take on the source.

Also, Ozymandias is still one of the worst performances in a major film in recent memory.

[red snow]

I wonder whether it was him or Goyer who overdid the action. I don't know where to place the blame. They could have spaced it better, it seemed to be all towards the end and it made no sense. Why is Superman not protecting Metropolis? There is no one near that Indian ocean Terra Former machine to get hurt. Why cram in the Zod fight after the Indian ocean battle? Why does Superman not give a fuck about the people? And then there is the resolution.

Given Sucker Punch's tendency to be long drawn-out fights and the Comedian fight at the start of Watchmen I'd say Snyder was to blame. Then again a lot of superhero films tend to devolve into 30 mins of mindless action in the final act (Iron Man I-III - Avengers, Green Lantern) so he was probably working from a fairly unimaginative script too,

I hated his take on Watchmen, he recreated a lot from the book, but it felt hollow (and IMO mostly looked like shit), it felt off tonally too and from the interviews I read at the time, I really didn't like his take on the source.

Also, Ozymandias is still one of the worst performances in a major film in recent memory.

I get the hollow thing as there were a lot of scenes that fell flat despite being (overly?) faithful to the source. It did have its moments though and oddly the best scene was the titles sequence which had me thinking "this is going to be amazing". While I still think it's a very solid interpretation I can't help but wonder what it could have been like if the same imagination as the title sequence was used for the whole adaptation. It's another reason why I don't really want the new film to be an adaptation of any of the BAtman/superman comics. Take what works from several of them and distill it into something familiar but new - that's how all the best new comic tales work these days.

[mormont]

Mandy: the quote they read out comes from The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller, and it's a near-future scenario where Batman and most of the other superheroes have retired (or been retired) but Superman is still allowed to be active as a semi-covert government operative. Bats then comes back and Supes is told to take him out. The conflict comes from playing up Batman's loner, law-unto-himself angle and Superman's 'big blue boy scout' angle (quote also taken from TDKR): Batman is angry at Superman for his obedience to authority. Most recent Batman vs Superman stories have taken a similar approach, Batman the individualist vs Superman the conformist.

[Myrddin]

So, Superman is asked to stop the vigilante in Gotham City and learns there's more to the man than the mask?

[red snow]

Very interesting. Thanks.

That's kind of crazy to have two figures most everyone LIKES and have them battling it out. Obviously kind of stupid of them both to do it, but interesting all the same. I agree that Batman can't possibly be expected to win something like that, but I imagine as the underdog and the non-conformist he'd be the one most people would be rooting for, no?

The question is whether he even intends to win :P You should read the comic it's good fun although I've just watched the cartoon adaptation and loved the fight sequence in question http://www.amazon.co.uk/Batman-Knight-Returns-Blu-ray-Import/dp/B00A2LOAKI/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1374691796&sr=8-7&keywords=dark+knight+returns It probably helps to watch the first part but Supes only appears in the second one.

[Ixodes]

So, Superman is asked to stop the vigilante in Gotham City and learns there's more to the man than the mask?

IMO, the other way around would work better. Batman investigates the uncontrollable alien that just took part in the catastrophic destruction of a major city. You could tie it in to Lex Luthor, tycoon reaching out to one of the few individuals that could stop Superman. He manipulates a conflict, the two clash then come together, paired off against Luthor.

[Myrddin]

These DC animate films are on Netflix streaming:

• Justice League: Doom - essentially Batman created a contingency plan for all the Justice League members in case any of them go bad. The bad guys get a hold of it and proceed to take them all down. The relevant part here is that Batman doesn't trust any of the "super powered" heroes 100% and is prepared.
  
• Superman/Batman: Apocalypse - I never finished it, but it's a team-up movie between the two. They are friends but have serious disagreements on how to handle things.
  

[Myrddin]

Thanks! I might have to get really drunk and watch those :)

Fixed it for you. ;)

[red snow]

That sounds pretty cool. I have no idea where I'd find the comic, though. And literally the only animated shows I watch that aren't for my kids are Venture Bros. and Archer on occassion...

Dark Knight returns is probably the best stocked Batman graphic novel. I'd be surprised if your library doesn't have it.

These DC animate films are on Netflix streaming:

• Justice League: Doom - essentially Batman created a contingency plan for all the Justice League members in case any of them go bad. The bad guys get a hold of it and proceed to take them all down. The relevant part here is that Batman doesn't trust any of the "super powered" heroes 100% and is prepared.
  
• Superman/Batman: Apocalypse - I never finished it, but it's a team-up movie between the two. They are friends but have serious disagreements on how to handle things.
  

They aren't the best examples. Superman/Batman:apocalypse is the worst one they've done so far - although it was based on a pretty poor story. Doom is fun enough though.

Batman: Red hood, Batman:year one and Dark Knight Returns are all good fun.

Superman: The elite is excellent - possibly the best examination of why Superman works and a critique on "edgy" heroes there is. Again based on an excellent comic.

Superman unbound is a fun Brainiac story

All Star Superman is a pretty faithful rendition of Grant Morrison's self contained run celebrating the more sci-fi/Big ideas aspect of the hero. And Fun.

EDIT: I realise the two mentioned were because they are freely available so they are fine. Just not the best by a long shot.

[Myrddin]

Checked your list against the streaming options from Netflix. These are all available:

• Batman: Under the Red Hood
  
• Batman: Year One
  
• Superman vs The Elite
  
• All-Star Superman
  

[Jaxom 1974]

Oh! Oh! Let's scrap the other ideas and do a Batman/Superman story from Byrne's Generations! Yeah. That's it!

[Martini Sigil]

strictly from box office point of view, its a great idea. The chances of it not making its money back and then some are slim.

Just a thought... "vs." might not involve a physical fight. And by the time the movie is in production, vs. might not still be in the title.

[Batman]

strictly from box office point of view, its a great idea. The chances of it not making its money back and then some are slim.

Just a thought... "vs." might not involve a physical fight. And by the time the movie is in production, vs. might not still be in the title.

Well come on, even Superman Returns and Batman and Robin made money.

[Batman]

I hated his take on Watchmen, he recreated a lot from the book, but it felt hollow (and IMO mostly looked like shit), it felt off tonally too and from the interviews I read at the time, I really didn't like his take on the source.

Also, Ozymandias is still one of the worst performances in a major film in recent memory.

The worst? Come on, did you see Green Lantern?

[Batman]

Checked your list against the streaming options from Netflix. These are all available:

• Batman: Under the Red Hood
  
• Batman: Year One
  
• Superman vs The Elite
  
• All-Star Superman
  

I thought Superman/Batman Public Enemies was pretty good. What I especially like is that it shows their friendship, even when their opinions differ. The book does a good job of going deeper. Did they have the original Worlds Finest from the series? That was descent.