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The Targ fire RESISTANCE debate...


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#1 Stannis Lives

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 12:58 PM

I am constantly perplexed at the degree of animosity surrounding whether or not the Targs are fire resistant. There seems to be a contingent who are 100% absolutely positively certain that Targs have absolutely no fire (or heat) resistance of any kind. This seems to be the same group that constantly argues about the presence of "magic" in westeros on a whole. I think we can all agree that the Starks have a hereditary WARG ability that is passed down sporadically. Why is it so crazy to believe that descendants of conquerors WHO RODE DRAGONS also had warg abilities as well as other magical properties such as fire resistance?

I will certainly agree that Targs are not immune to fire and I will also concede that per GRRM, all targs are not immune to all types of fire at all times. However, there is certainly evidence of some immunity and resistance throughout the bloodline that is simply dismissed.

Obviously there is the example of Dany walking out of the funeral pyre. Many have chalked this up to a one time "miracle" due to blood magic. If there is indeed blood magic, why can't there be fire resistance? Regardless, I don't buy the argument that her hair burned but the rest wasn't directly touched by fire. She sat in the middle of burning embers as fire poured down on her all around. If someone's hair burned completely off, then you can bet that they were subject to extreme heat that would also burn the skin, if not melt the skin off the body.

There is the example of Dany in the fighting pit when Drogon breathes down on her. Again, there was fire all around her that is hot enough to melt rock as in harrenhall, and yet she didn't even flinch. Is Drogon seriously that accurate with his fire and heat emanation that he can completely control what heats up? Eye witnesses say her hair was on fire as she flew off. Dragon was spraying supernatural fire over the crowd, yet all she ended up with were a few blisters?? Come on people. Anyone else would have died. Quentyn was fried in two seconds, although I realize he took a direct shot. You don't think Drogon's fire spraying whichever way his head was turned, would give off unbearable heat??

How about Aegon and his sisters riding dragons and dealing with the spraying heat. As the dragons have these long flexible necks, wouldn't they ever spray fire that comes close to the rider? I think fire resistance is much more rare among the Targs now as their bloodline has been diluted, but nobody is riding fire breathing dragons with long necks that can spray supernaturally hot fire 360 degrees without frying.

How about the dragon horns that bind the riders to dragons? They burn up anyone who blows them, so every time one was blown, a person was sacrificed? Or are some Targs able to blow the horn without fear of burning up?

Finally, there is constant mention of Dany taking baths in "scalding water". I will admit that a few other characters have described their baths as "scalding", but scalding is scalding. Scalding means to burn someone with hot liquid or, in this context, to heat to a temperature just short of the boiling point. Normal people DO NOT take baths in SCALDING water.

GRRM: it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times.. Translation: Some Targs are immune to some fire sometimes.


#2 protar

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:05 PM

Martin has confirmed that Dany's fireproofness was a one time magical event. He's also confirmed that Targs do tend to have a slight heat resistant allowing them to take scolding baths but this seems more like something that results from social conditioning.

#3 The Dornishman's Wife

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:08 PM

There is the example of Dany in the fighting pit when Drogon breathes down on her. Again, there was fire all around her that is hot enough to melt rock as in harrenhall, and yet she didn't even flinch.


She darted under the flames, which I would say is a bit more than flinching and also had the nice effect of, you know, avoiding the fire.

Normal people DO NOT take baths in SCALDING water.


Does that mean that you subscribe to a few other non-canon secret Targ theories, or is there also a Tully resistance to fire etc?

[paraphrased: It's only possible to wield a flamethrower if you're immune to fire]


No, it's not.

How about the dragon horns that bind the riders to dragons? They burn up anyone who blows them, so every time one was blown, a person was sacrificed? Or are some Targs able to blow the horn without fear of burning up?


I certainly wouldn't recommend them to risk it. After all, the Valyrians who built the horn thought that impossible.

Edited by The Dornishman's Wife, 23 July 2013 - 01:13 PM.


#4 WildBlood

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:08 PM

Just because someone likes their bathes hot doesn't mean fire resistance.
Dragons steam in the cold which means they are warm to the touch, not like fire.
As for the horns, I don't believe the Targs used the horns to bind their dragons.
And finally:

If there is indeed blood magic, why can't there be fire resistance


Because the author has been adamant in shooting this down. Many times.

#5 Stannis Lives

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:09 PM

She darted under the flames, which I would say is a bit more than flinching and also had the nice effect of, you know, avoiding the fire.


So dragonfire has to actually touch you to burn you? Its hot enough to melt rocks but if it goes over your head, then you don't feel it?

#6 WhiteWalder

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:10 PM

How about the dragon horns that bind the riders to dragons? They burn up anyone who blows them, so every time one was blown, a person was sacrificed? Or are some Targs able to blow the horn without fear of burning up?

I agree with most of the post. /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />
The part above is what I struggle with. Aerion drinks wildfire, which kills him. The wildfire may have only poisoned him, but I would think the dragon horn does pretty much the same thing. You wouldn't die right away as with the dragon horn, but you would start to burn when you make sudden movements from the unstable nature of the substance. Either the Targs are fire resistant from the outside, or its only a select group of Targs that are fire resistant.

#7 Stannis Lives

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:10 PM

Just because someone likes their bathes hot doesn't mean fire resistance.
Dragons steam in the cold which means they are warm to the touch, not like fire.
As for the horns, I don't believe the Targs used the horns to bind their dragons.
And finally:


Because the author has been adamant in shooting this down. Many times.


I quoted the author in my OP. That is not the same as saying it's not true. If there is another source, then please direct me to it.

#8 Lord Flashheart

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:11 PM

A SSM, at the bottom clears up most of this.

So dragonfire has to actually touch you to burn you? Its hot enough to melt rocks but if it goes over your head, then you don't feel it?


There is no accurate way to know how close the fire was to her, or how hot dragon fire burns.

#9 Stannis Lives

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:11 PM

Martin has confirmed that Dany's fireproofness was a one time magical event. He's also confirmed that Targs do tend to have a slight heat resistant allowing them to take scolding baths but this seems more like something that results from social conditioning.


I quoted Martin's statement on the subject. I haven't seen anything more definitive.

#10 The Faceless Wolf

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:12 PM

There is no debate when the man who wrote the damn books has already explained the situation. People who think they have powers are willfully ignoring the truth.

#11 armidil0

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:12 PM

Mirri Maaz Duur(sp?) was chantinging during the pyre, but messed up and cast a 'spell' on Dany, which is why I think she was 'fireproof' at that time.

#12 ~Red~Viper~

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:13 PM

Well over the years there might have been Targaryens immune to fire, but we dont know for sure as Dany is the only one we've seen with this... ability. Look at Aerion Brightflame lol. Or Viserys, and the mad king was obsessed with it, but i doubt it made him immune to it.

It's said that all Valyrian magic was linked to fire and/or blood. So it's not too far-fetched to think that other sorcerous Tagaryens could be 'fireproof.' Whether it's down to sorcery or blood, or a combination of both, through Valyrian vodoo.

All the Valyrian scrolls linked to dragon lore/ sorcery were lost in the doom. The maesters could have some vital info...

#13 Vuron

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:13 PM

So dragonfire has to actually touch you to burn you? Its hot enough to melt rocks but if it goes over your head, then you don't feel it?


Chalk it up to author oversight, but yes. It's a similar debate as to whether, or not, Drogo could have heated gold enough to melt. Unfortunately, GRRM doesn't know or think of every little detail to perfection.

#14 WildBlood

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:14 PM

I quoted the author in my OP. That is not the same as saying it's not true. If there is another source, then please direct me to it.

http://web.archive.o...pts/031899.html
http://www.westeros...._immune_to_fire
http://www.westeros..../SSM/Entry/945/

And for the record, I wouldn't say you quoted the author, you paraphrased and then passed your judgement of his statement as fact.

#15 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:14 PM

I'm sure you've already read some relevant threads on this topic (pyre event and PSA about "fireproofness").

Within the story, outside of the pyre event, Dany has not exhibited a supernatural ability to withstand heat or fire anymore than most others. She takes hot baths, but so do all of the wealthy nobles who have the luxury of the staff and resources required to create hot baths without modern plumbing. But no one around her ever makes any mention of her baths being unusually hot. (I have a fairly lengthy list of all the hot bath mentions in the series if you care to see it). She also does not feel comfortable in the heat of the Red Waste or Slaver's Bay. Dragon riders have been burned by their dragons (Rhaenyra is a known example, but presumably all those dragons that died in the dance of dragons were carrying riders who died along with them).

Denying a sort of magical ability to withstand heat or fire isn't denying the fact that magic exists or even that Dany has some sort of magical ability. We have to remember that this is a fantasy series and dragons don't exist in real life. GRRM can make up the rules for dragons however he wishes and if he decides that dragon fire doesn't whip around on it's rider, then that's how it works.

So dragonfire has to actually touch you to burn you? Its hot enough to melt rocks but if it goes over your head, then you don't feel it?

We know without a doubt that the flames did not come near her body because her clothing did not burn.

#16 Stannis Lives

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:14 PM

There is no debate when the man who wrote the damn books has already explained the situation. People who think they have powers are willfully ignoring the truth.


Again... I quoted Martin in my OP.

#17 WhiteWalder

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:15 PM

A SSM, at the bottom clears up most of this.



There is no accurate way to know how close the fire was to her, or how hot dragon fire burns.

I'm not sure "it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times." clears up anything. If anything, it draws more questions. It says all Targs This suggests that some Targs are immune all types of fire, and some of those are immune at all times.

#18 The Dornishman's Wife

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:18 PM

Again... I quoted Martin in my OP.


Well, I guess that makes it alright to ignore what he said over and over again then.

I personally find the following quote to be the most committing (and yes, it has been linked above already, but maybe it's harder to dismiss if it's actually quoted), though each to his own of course:

Q: Do Targaryens become immune to fire once they "bond" to their dragons?
GRRM: Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle.


Edited by The Dornishman's Wife, 23 July 2013 - 01:22 PM.


#19 WildBlood

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:21 PM

I'm not sure "it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times." clears up anything. If anything, it draws more questions. It says all Targs This suggests that some Targs are immune all types of fire, and some of those are immune at all times.


I would say it implies that when some blood magic to make you not burn to death is involved then maybe you will be resistant... /box.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':box:' /> /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#20 Roadside Rose

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:22 PM

I have seen this debate about Targs and fire immunity. And I'll tell you what I think about it.
When Dany is at Astapor, she feels faint in the heat.

“To win his spiked cap, an Unsullied must go to the slave marts with a silver mark, find some wailing newborn, and kill it before its mother’s eyes. In this way, we make certain that there is no weakness left in them.”
She was feeling faint. The heat, she tried to tell herself. “You take a babe from its mother’s arms, kill it as she watches, and pay for her pain with a silver coin?”

When I read this, I wondered how resistant were Targs to fire and heat. But if you read the passage, one could also argue that Dany was really angry at the cruelty she saw in Astapor, that's why she really felt faint, and it wasn't because of the heat.

The confusion on Targaryens and fire immunity is because of Drogo's funeral pyre. And I think unless we have a better understanding of what really happened at Drogo's funeral pyre, we will never know the answer to that question. All GRRM has said is that Targaryens do not have fire immunity.

Some say Dany was immune to fire. But I think it has more to do with the whole funeral pyre ritual. And I do think that Mirri had no clue of what was about to happen.