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Jon's claim to the throne


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#1 LordTywinsGhost

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:25 PM

I was thinking a lot about this recently, correct me if im wrong but if R+L=J is true then isn't Jon still a bastard? Because rhaegars wife was Elia martell, not lyanna. Therefore Jon would have no claim to the IT. What do you think???

#2 Arthur Dayne's Honor

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:28 PM

It is likely Rhaegar was a polygamist. Plenty of past Targaryans were polygamists, Aegon the Conquerer married both his sisters, Maegyr the Cruel had like 7 wives I recall

#3 repbypop

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:32 PM

Jon is a bastard who was not legitimized by Rhaegar or any king, it will be hard for him to claim anything.

#4 Rickeen Baratheon

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:33 PM

I think a big point of the whole series has been, it does not matter if you have a claim to the throne, the right of conquest rules. If (f)aegon is winning, that is why Lords will rally to him; no one wants to be on the losing side. The only reason they supported Jeoff, is because he had quite a large force and was believed to be Robert's heir, though I am almost 100% sure people know. If Jon is the heir, it won't matter. He made his vows and now has no titles! Except LC /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#5 Roadside Rose

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:34 PM

There have been theories floating around that suggest Rhaegar married Lyanna. So he may be legit.

#6 repbypop

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:38 PM

There have been theories floating around that suggest Rhaegar married Lyanna. So he may be legit.


But this has to be proved, and he must gain support from others lords.

#7 Arthur Dayne's Honor

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:39 PM

But this has to be proved, and he must gain support from others lords.

There is a theory floating around about how the proof is buried with Lyanna, A Targaryan Wedding Cloak or The Crown of Winter or both.

#8 Not Dead Just Broken

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:41 PM

Yeah I don't see how he'd be legitimate. I mean the theory that they married would mean that the marriage took place at the Tower of Joy in Dorne. So, some presumably Dornish Septon was willing to marry Oberyn Martell's brother-in-law to someone other than Elia? Would you take that risk? Robb's will could legitimize him as a Stark but Jon already turned that down from Stannis. I'm not sure why he'd even want to be a Targ.

#9 Dragonfish

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:44 PM

Yeah I don't see how he'd be legitimate. I mean the theory that they married would mean that the marriage took place at the Tower of Joy in Dorne.


No it doesn't. We know that Rhaegar and Lyanna ended up at the ToJ, but we don't know where they were before that. They just as easily could have married in front of a weirwood on the Isle of Faces, for example.

#10 Arthur Dayne's Honor

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:46 PM

No it doesn't. We know that Rhaegar and Lyanna ended up at the ToJ, but we don't know where they were before that. They just as easily could have married in front of a weirwood on the Isle of Faces, for example.

Thats what I think

#11 repbypop

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:58 PM

Even if it truth, I doubt the others lords will believe this Story and throw their support to Jon, Targaryen's loyalists already have two contenders, Dany and Aegon. Jon has more chance to have the support of the North if they believe is the son of Ned, and i don't think Dorne would've appreciated this story knowing Rhaegar was supposed to be with Elia. And don't forget that there are many lords who are not Targs loyalist like the Vale, Riverlands, Stormlands and Lannisters.

#12 Arthur Dayne's Honor

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:05 PM

Even if it truth, I doubt the others lords will believe this Story and throw their support to Jon, Targaryen's loyalists already have two contenders, Dany and Aegon. Jon has more chance to have the support of the North if they believe is the son of Ned, and i don't think Dorne would've appreciated this story knowing Rhaegar was supposed to be with Elia. And don't forget that there are many lords who are not Targs loyalist like the Vale, Riverlands, Stormlands and Lannisters.

This is where Jon's Stark lineage will help him. The North likely already wants him to e their king via Robb's will, the Riverlands will likely support him for his Stark lineage and Robb's will. Most of the Vale wanted to support Robb during the WOT5K but Lysa kept them from it, if Sansa screws LF over and outplays him(as I believe she will) she will likely get the Vale lords to do it because she marries Harold. So altogether e would have a semi strong navy, and around 30,000 soldiers(this is just a guess). He will have pretty much the entire northern half of westeros on his side.

#13 repbypop

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:22 PM

This is where Jon's Stark lineage will help him. The North likely already wants him to e their king via Robb's will, the Riverlands will likely support him for his Stark lineage and Robb's will. Most of the Vale wanted to support Robb during the WOT5K but Lysa kept them from it, if Sansa screws LF over and outplays him(as I believe she will) she will likely get the Vale lords to do it because she marries Harold. So altogether e would have a semi strong navy, and around 30,000 soldiers(this is just a guess). He will have pretty much the entire northern half of westeros on his side.


If it's true and proven, Jon could be the only one who can reunited the North and the South, fAegon and Dany will not succeed to keep the peace.

#14 Leif

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:33 PM

Hodor has a better claim to the IT than Jon ever will.

#15 Light a wight tonight

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:35 PM

But first, somebody has to let Jon in on this. As far as he knows he's The Ned's bastard.

Since Good King Bob's dead there's no reason to keep it a secret any longer, but the world in general will take some convincing.

#16 Arthur Dayne's Honor

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:38 PM

If it's true and proven, Jon could be the only one who can reunited the North and the South, fAegon and Dany will not succeed to keep the peace.

Fire Eater came up with an interesting way it could happen. This is the short version of what I can remember. Dany arrive in WF after ADWD 2.0 and is confronted by Jon with proof of his heritage proving his legitimacy as the rightful heir, Dany unconvinced tells him the only way to prove it is for him to climb atop Drogon. Thi will only prove it to her because she believes only Targs can ride dragons. He wargs Drogon and tames him convincing her of his legitimacy. They both go to the wall to fight the others. She dies giving birth to Tyrions child. That's was all off the top of my head, the actual post wa quite the read. Maybe if we are lucky someone can provide a link to it

#17 jenerationx

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:47 PM

As has been stated in numerous other threads... the World of Ice and Fire app, approved by GRRM, states that Robb legitimized Jon in his will and made him his heir. So the statement that "no king has ever legitimized Jon" is not strictly correct. Whether the rest of the kingdom recognizes Robb's authority as King of the North is another question... but actually, regardless, Robb was at least Lord of Winterfell at the time, so his legitimization of Jon should stand anyway.

If you search for threads about the ToJ, you will hear some (imho convincing) arguments that Rhaegar and Lyanna could conceivably been married. But at this point, that is admittedly conjecture and the "proof" points are less convincing for some than others.

#18 Steve Moss II

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 12:04 AM

But this has to be proved, and he must gain support from others lords.


Proof exists in the form of three Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy while Jon was being born. If he was not the legitimate heir (i.e. the legitimate son of R+L) their duty required them to go to Viserys on Dragonstone as Viseerys would have been king at that time, as both Aerys and Rhaegar were dead by that time. They didn't, which implies they believed Jon was their king. Their cairns would be proof enough.

What's confused me is why there has seemed to be no curiousity from the various lords and knights in the Seven Kingdoms as to why three Kingsguard fought and died at the Tower of Joy. Or, if it isn't known they fought and died there, where they fought and died at. These were three of the best knights in Westeros, the equivalent of modern day rockstars. You'd think that at least a few people would be at least curious and would have looked into it, such as Varys.

#19 Lord_Tyrell

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 12:06 AM

I was thinking a lot about this recently, correct me if im wrong but if R+L=J is true then isn't Jon still a bastard? Because rhaegars wife was Elia martell, not lyanna. Therefore Jon would have no claim to the IT. What do you think???


Not if they were married. He'd be the rightful heir to the throne considering Aegon isn't who he says he is.

#20 Lord_Tyrell

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 12:10 AM

Even if it truth, I doubt the others lords will believe this Story and throw their support to Jon, Targaryen's loyalists already have two contenders, Dany and Aegon. Jon has more chance to have the support of the North if they believe is the son of Ned, and i don't think Dorne would've appreciated this story knowing Rhaegar was supposed to be with Elia. And don't forget that there are many lords who are not Targs loyalist like the Vale, Riverlands, Stormlands and Lannisters.


The thing is Jon will not win the kingdoms by conquering it. He will win the realm by saving it. He will be Azor Ahai reborn and the Prince that Was Promised. They will support the person who went out on the field and saved every man, woman, and child in the realm, rather than a cowardly king who hid behind his walls by his uncle's and father's advice.