Lord_Tyrell Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Proof exists in the form of three Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy while Jon was being born. If he was not the legitimate heir (i.e. the legitimate son of R+L) their duty required them to go to Viserys on Dragonstone as Viseerys would have been king at that time, as both Aerys and Rhaegar were dead by that time. They didn't, which implies they believed Jon was their king. Their cairns would be proof enough.What's confused me is why there has seemed to be no curiousity from the various lords and knights in the Seven Kingdoms as to why three Kingsguard fought and died at the Tower of Joy. Or, if it isn't known they fought and died there, where they fought and died at. These were three of the best knights in Westeros, the equivalent of modern day rockstars. You'd think that at least a few people would be at least curious and would have looked into it, such as Varys.Good post. The Kingsguard presence may be the only proof that is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lehnaru Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Whether or not R+L=J is true and whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna married, Jon has no claim to the throne. Neither does Dany. They lost the throne to Robert. The rightful king of Westeros is Stannis Baratheon, and that is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenerationx Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 A claim cannot be taken away. They may not be the "heirs" or the "rightful rulers," but both Jon and Dany are claimants. So was Renly, so was Robb, so even is Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Whether or not R+L=J is true and whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna married, Jon has no claim to the throne. Neither does Dany. They lost the throne to Robert. The rightful king of Westeros is Stannis Baratheon, and that is that.The usurpers' line shall be destroyed when Dany takes back what rightfully belongs to the Targaryens and she'll do it in "Fire and Blood"Seriously though Jon has no claim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Dayne's Honor Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 As soon as Dany wins or when Aegon is revealed as a fake after he wins Jon will be the rightful heir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 With the war that is raging I dont Feel IF Jon's lineage was proven, their would be many people or great Lords left to contend his ascension to the Iron throne if taken by conquest. Dead men can't argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnFit Finlay Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Whether or not R+L=J is true and whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna married, Jon has no claim to the throne. Neither does Dany. They lost the throne to Robert. The rightful king of Westeros is Stannis Baratheon, and that is that.No!Stannis lost his right to the Throne when he was defeated on the Blackwater by Joffrey's forces! That means the rightful King of Westeros is Tommen. Just like the rightful Lord of Winterfell is Ramsay Bolton.Seriously though, I love Stannis but I utterly hate when people cite "Right of Conquest" like the Iron Throne is the Elder Wand from Harry Potter. If Dany comes to Westeros with her Dragons, the small folk rise up in support of her and all the Lords bend the knee, is it really going to matter that she never "conquered" Stannis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 As soon as Dany wins or when Aegon is revealed as a fake after he wins Jon will be the rightful heirI would love to see characters believing a silver haired, purple eyed prince who just conquered Stormsend and has Jon Connington behind him is a fake. Whilst a dark haired, grey eyed bastard who has no men and no connections is the real deal :) Jon isn't the rightful heir of anything. 1. The Targaryens no longer have a claim 2. No one's going to support let alone believe him 3. Dany and Aegon have to win back through force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 If a tree falls in the woods and noone is around to hear....In other words - it doesn't matter since it can't be proven convincingly enough to matter politically that Jon is Rhaegar's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreakonic Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Jon has as much claim to the throne as Varys. R + L = J theory aside, he's still a bastard from the North and is Lord Commander of the NW (assuming he didn't die). If by some miracle he manages to stay alive (having read over 5 books and judging by the TYPE of these 5 books I've read, don't get your hopes up), he'll be too busy fighting the Others and getting back at the dudes that attempted to kill him. He's not going to claim a throne he in no way has a claim to just for the sake of claiming a throne people want to claim. He already got stabbed leading a force of less than a thousand man, nobody's stupid enough to dare leading the lives over hundreds of thousands of people after an assassination attempt without a serious self-enlightment journey during a war in which there are at least three pretenders and a zombie invasion waiting to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 If a tree falls in the woods and noone is around to hear....In other words - it doesn't matter since it can't be proven convincingly enough to matter politically that Jon is Rhaegar's son.:agree: I would love to see characters believe and care about R+L=J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Bastards doesn't have a claim (unless legitimized by king) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morienthar Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married it would nearly impossible to prove it to a large amount of the Lords.Some might believe it some might say,he's just another pretender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Bastards doesn't have a claim (unless legitimized by king)Well there's Robb's will but I don't think that will come up to much :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Dead Just Broken Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Good post. The Kingsguard presence may be the only proof that is needed.Rhaegar left the Kingsguard there before the battle of the Trident. King's Landing hadn't fallen. Remember Ned's dream“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.Aegon and Rhaenys were alive (or if Aegon is still alive, thought to be alive). Heck, Aerys was still alive. At best, if R+L=J is true, Rhaegar left the 3 members of the Kingsguard to defend Lyanna and the equivalent of Prince Harry. Not a direct heir at all. It wouldn't prove anything about Jon. It's more likely that Lyanna was pregnant when Rhaegar left and thus couldn't travel and needed to be protected or that the Kingsguard was there to ensure that nobody took her back to marry Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Good post. The Kingsguard presence may be the only proof that is needed.I'm sorry but that isn't enough to prove anything. God help me if characters believe Jon with just that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 I'm sorry but that isn't enough to prove anything. God help me if characters believe Jon with just that This would be way too implausible and convenient even by the very low standards of Jon's story so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Well there's Robb's will but I don't think that will come up to much :dunno:That'd legitimize him as Robb's heir, as either King or Lord Paramont of the North. And it would have no meaning anyway, because Jon is a sworn borther of the Night's Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moss II Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Whether or not R+L=J is true and whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna married, Jon has no claim to the throne. Neither does Dany. They lost the throne to Robert. The rightful king of Westeros is Stannis Baratheon, and that is that.No!Stannis lost his right to the Throne when he was defeated on the Blackwater by Joffrey's forces! That means the rightful King of Westeros is Tommen. Just like the rightful Lord of Winterfell is Ramsay Bolton.Seriously though, I love Stannis but I utterly hate when people cite "Right of Conquest" like the Iron Throne is the Elder Wand from Harry Potter. If Dany comes to Westeros with her Dragons, the small folk rise up in support of her and all the Lords bend the knee, is it really going to matter that she never "conquered" Stannis?Exactly. This might makes right is ridiculous but, unfortunately, it is the law of the jungle. And under the law of the jungle, Tommen is king. Until someone comes along and kills him. Which they will in a lawless land. Which is why society's support of succession and property rights are so important. Without them, it is the strongest taking what they like.Rhaegar left the Kingsguard there before the battle of the Trident. King's Landing hadn't fallen. Remember Ned's dream“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.Ned went to the Trident (dead Rheagar), then KL (dead Aerys and Rheagar's kids), then moved to besiege Storms End (which caused Viserys and Dany to flee), then the Tower of Joy (dead Lyanna and 3 KG but live Jon). One reason he never disclosed Jon's parentage is the fate of Rheagar's kids and Bob's approval of it. This caused a rift and Ned separated from Bob for the balance of the campaign.The text is explicit:“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.So not only does the ToJ occur after all of the deaths, but the 3 KG is aware of Rheagar's and Aery's death, and Visery's sailing away. Their vow was to protect their king, Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 There is a theory floating around about how the proof is buried with Lyanna, A Targaryan Wedding Cloak or The Crown of Winter or both.One of the many theories I hope isn't true :ack: and if it was I'm going to question the intelligence of anyone whose gullible enough to believe itThe thing is Jon will not win the kingdoms by conquering it. He will win the realm by saving it. He will be Azor Ahai reborn and the Prince that Was Promised. They will support the person who went out on the field and saved every man, woman, and child in the realm, rather than a cowardly king who hid behind his walls by his uncle's and father's advice.God no :stillsick: The throne should be left to the players and their politics. It has no place for a bastard from the NWs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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