Is the queen of thorns sexist?

[Sansa_Stark]

wait nvm

[Winter's Knight]

"I’ve never been quite sure what the point of a Silent Sister is, if truth be told. It seems to me they’re only women with the useful bits being off limits."

Now if Tyrion had said that, wouldn't that be considered as sexist or misogynistic? It would be used as fodder in every "Tyrion is the devil" thread. Just playing devil's advocate here. I don't want to turn this into a whole sexism/double standards debate though. Thanks E-Ro, for pointing this out though.

Regardless of her views on men, Olenna will still remain awesome in my eyes. Poisoning that little shit of a king makes up for the odd sexist comment here and there.

Tyrion has made sexist comments actually, while talking about the Mountain women of the Vale, Shae, Septa Lenore-he has a very strong virgin/whore complex.

Similarly, Stannis has made foul comments about Gilly seducing her father, going so far as to call her a whore for it.

Male characters make such comments which are both excused and called out, as do female characters like Cersei, Cat and Oleanna. To cite it as a double standard on the forum is a bit much.

In fact, if you want to talk about sexist opinions, what about Ned and his trivialisation of Arya's desire to take up the sword? He allowed her to train as a safety valve, yet he certainly meant for her to become a wife and mother. Yet,you (generic "you") won't see people calling him out-it isn't necessarily because of a double standard but because it is not a very significant point in most discussions.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

Male characters make such comments which are both excused and called out, as do female characters like Cersei, Cat and Oleanna. To cite it as a double standard on the forum is a bit much.

I don't remember Cat ever being sexist.

Winter's Kinight, I was kind of rude to you in one thread. I guess I was frustrated and angry at the day and I discounted at you. I'm really sorry. I never got the chance to apologize because the thread was locked so I'm doing it now even if it isn't the appropriate moment. I don't know if you remember because the thread was locked and I am not an assiduous poster in the forums and it happened approximately six months ago but anyway...

I disagree with you in some topics but I think you make some really clever posts and I respect you. I hope you forgive me.

In fact, if you want to talk about sexist opinions, what about Ned and his trivialisation of Arya's desire to take up the sword? He allowed her to train as a safety valve, yet he certainly meant for her to become a wife and mother. Yet,you (generic "you") won't see people calling him out-it isn't necessarily because of a double standard but because it is not a very significant point in most discussions.

It is a double standard but I think it's not a point in most discussions because most lords wouldn't even bother to please Arya in said circumstance. Ned was a man partially determined by his society's expectations so he couldn't ignore the fact that his daughter was supposed to be a "proper lady" and marry a high lord. Is it unfair? Sure, but I think it is too harsh to call on Ned on this in a society as sexist as Westeros. The values proclaimed dictates that said behaviors are not acceptable. He did his best to make Arya happy but in the end he expected Arya to be happy with the future he designed for her. He was mistaken but he didn't realize that. He is wrong but in the end his selfless efforts to please his daughter overshadowed his sexist attitude IMO. If he survived and Arya grew up to defy his notions then that would be another story but in the end that didn't create a significant conflict (because he was murdered and all) so I think that is why this incident is overlooked by many fans.

[Winter's Knight]

I don't remember Cat ever being sexist.

I was thinking of her first reaction to Brienne and her internal comments on Jeyne S.' childbearing capabilities. Like Ned, it's realively minor and understandable considering the society they grew up in.

Winter's Kinight, I was kind of rude to you in one thread. I guess I was frustrated and angry at the day and I discounted at you. I'm really sorry. I never got the chance to apologize because the thread was locked so I'm doing it now even if it isn't the appropriate moment. I don't know if you remember because the thread was locked and I am not an assiduous poster in the forums and it happened approximately six months ago but anyway...

I disagree with you in some topics but I think you make some really clever posts and I respect you. I hope you forgive me.

Heavens! Don't worry about it-I'm always and forever stepping on people's toes on this forum and so fully understand how one can get carried away in the heat of discussion. :grouphug:

[mrunderhill]

At the end of the day, though, it's murdering Joffrey which really matters. Having a sharp tongue and being slightly sexist is nothing compared to assassinating the 13 year old king, her grandson-in-law on his wedding day.

[Kolantero]

Nice catch, I never noticed QoT's sexism even though it is really "visible" and straightforward. Not surprising, our society trains us to recognize sexism only against non males

[David Selig]

At the end of the day, though, it's murdering Joffrey which really matters. Having a sharp turn and being slightly sexist is nothing compared to assassinating the 13 year old king, her grandson-in-law on his wedding day.

Yep, everything is forgiven because of this grand act of justice. :cool4:

[Riptide]

Lol, slightly sexist? She's as much so as Clayton Suggs.

Tyrion has made sexist comments actually, while talking about the Mountain women of the Vale, Shae, Septa Lenore-he has a very strong virgin/whore complex.

Similarly, Stannis has made foul comments about Gilly seducing her father, going so far as to call her a whore for it.

When did Stannis call Gily a whore? I believe you, but want proof. On Tyrion, did he ever say anything near approaching "women are only worth their genitals"?

[Lala]

I think, if we must use the word "sexist" here, that there is a huge matter of degree. The comments that Lady Olenna (she hates being called the QoT!) makes are more similar to comments like:

"Oh, why are guys so dumb!" or "Women are so much trouble!" or "Men always think with their penises" or "Women are so emotional!"

Which while they reflect (potentially troubling) sexist attitudes, are relatively innocuous in and of themselves. I'm not excusing these statements, simply pointing out that they do not have the same level of potency as Tywin's sexist attitude towards his daughter or Tyrion's objectification of the women he sleeps with. They also don't necessarily reflect a deep-seated belief in the fundamental superiority of women - I don't recall seeing Lady Olenna being dismissive of another character's opinions or capability simply because of their gender.

Finally I find it hard to be troubled about a single, adorable elderly woman running around snarking about the stupidity of her male children when there are much more subtle but disturbing cases of sexism (i.e. Tyrion didn't seem particularly morally troubled by the group rape of Tysha until after he found out that she wasn't a whore - and even then most of his pity was directed at himself)

It's a dangerous point, but I'm basically arguing about fundamental mindset, which I think is much better revealed in the more subtle, but telling actions and thoughts of a character than simple pieces of amazing snark. Of course, it's hard to say one way or another about Lady Olenna since we aren't privy to her POV (I would totally write a Lady Olenna POV - it would be hilarious - and just for you E-Ro, I will pepper on the sexism as heavily as possible ;) )

ETA: still - thank you for pointing this out - I think it's always a good thing for women to be called out on their sexism as well. And that point about Obama's campaign speech upthread was an excellent one. I think we tend to gloss over those attitudes in our own lives since they are perceived as less "harmful" but that doesn't make them any more ok. (Is it bad to admit that I love Lady Olenna because she's so rude about men? It's so refreshing!)

[David Selig]

She clearly wasn't totally serious. She's sexist, but let's not demonise her for a few snarky remarks.

[Free Northman]

This thread is a laugh.

[Kolantero]

She clearly wasn't totally serious. She's sexist, but let's not demonise her for a few snarky remarks.

I don't think anyone demonized her... Personally she is still one of my favorite "minor" characters

[Riptide]

I can't find any decent source for the Obama quote. Could someone point one out?

[ambi76]

She is misandristic like hell.

Let's imagine Walder Frey calling one of his daughters a fat idiot that should have been beaten more often as a child, or hey, make that all girls should be beaten more often, after all the only thing they are good for is fucking. And what the hell is the point if a barren chick, usless as fuck, no?

Yeah, suddenly not so endearing and funny anymore.

[Lala]

She is misandristic like hell.

Let's imagine Walder Frey calling one of his daughters a fat idiot that should have been beaten more often as a child, or hey, make that all girls should be beaten more often after all teh only thing they are good for is fucking. And what the hell is the point if a barren chick, usless as fuck, no?

Yeah, suddenly not so endearing and funny anymore.

I think this might come from a difference in cultural understanding :)

As an Asian American, I actually grew up with corporal punishment (and no, before you ask, I'm only 22, so it's a very modern upbringing) as a very valid form of discipline. When Lady Olenna mentions beating her sons, she means it in the context of "I should have disciplined them more" rather than "I should have beaten them bloody" - this context becomes self-evident when the comment is linked with "then they would listen to my advice"

[David Selig]

I don't think anyone demonized her... Personally she is still one of my favorite "minor" characters

Well, just above my post it was said she is as sexist as Clayton Suggs, which is way too much IMO since she hasn't done anything more than say a few rude jokes and snarky remarks.

[ambi76]

Okay, we'll go with spanking as a (rather useless but whatever) schooling tool. She's still prescribing it to a particular gender specifically here, which is unsettling to me.

[Sansa_Stark]

Okay, we'll go with spanking as a (rather useless but whatever) schooling tool. She's still prescribing it to a particular gender specifically here, which is unsettling to me.

Its okay though. Calling all men idiots and saying only their penises are useful is just a joke!

She calls some women stupid so it all balances out and she isn't sexist at all, nope, women can't be sexist.

[Lala]

Okay, we'll go with spanking as a (rather useless but whatever) schooling tool. She's still prescribing it to a particular gender specifically here, which is unsettling to me.

That's perfectly valid, though I personally find the comments that E-Ro pointed out much more indicative than a mother wanting to beat her sons (who are with her) as opposed to her daughters (who are married off and not inflicting her with their stupidity anymore)

[Riptide]

she hasn't done anything more than say a few rude jokes and snarky remarks.

One of which said than men were only worth their penises. Clayton Suggs hasn't said anything anywhere near that bad; it's only his general attitude that puts him near the QoT.