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My Aegon Targaryen/Jon Snow Theory.


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#1 Aristogato

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 04:38 PM

This theory takes little bits and pieces from other theories concerning both character, but it focuses mainly on Aegon Targaryen, all the hints that point out he is a "mummer dragon" and the ones that point out he is a true Targ.
First off, as it was mentioned several times, there is the prophecy we have that seems to point him out as a fake dragon, which leads us to believe he is an impostor, or at least doesn't have a true claim to the Iron Throne. That has already been widely debated in other Aegon posts in every detail, so I'm just gonna say I do believe he is a mummer dragon and that the prophecy is talking about him at that point specifically. It would further grant more importance to the role of Dany in the whole series, as having a male Targaryen suddenly appear would somewhat diminish her claim a little, and that is what she is being warned about, that she still has the true claim.
A lot of people believe he is a Blackfyre, or at least related to them, Illirio's son and so forth, which seems very unlikely, mainly by the arguments given on this post by Bravely Done :http://asoiaf.wester...__hl__blackfyre

The main thing that should make us realize he is no impostor is the fact that he has Jon Connington with him, a man who was deeply in love with his father, loved him physically and knew the rest of Rhaegar's family. Even if given a false baby, I assume the one man who looked dreamily at Rhaegar every day of his life can tell if the boy is not his son as he grows. Furthermore, he knows Illirio, he could tell if he looks like him. But anyways, there are many more good observations on the link above.
So we reach a point of conflict, we assume he doesn't have a true claim to the Throne, thus he would be usurping Dany's place, but he is Rhaegar's son, which to most people seems illogical. Another thing I want to point out, is that the real Aegon would be older than Robb and Jon, while this boy looks about age, or even younger as we are told by Tyrion.
Furthermore, I like to believe Tywin, or some of his men, who presented the babies to Robert, dared to check if he had purple eyes. Not a common trait, you know, to replace a baby like that easily is a great feat.
And now this gets linked to Jon Snow in a way. The only way the boy could be Rhaegar's son and a fake claimant to the Throne is that he is Rhaegar's bastard son, which fits both. We know that Rhaegar and Lyanna probably had a child, we know Ned most likely took him. But how and why would he end up with Jon Connington? We know he hid him from Robert, that's for sure, but we also know Ned made two stops after the war, King's Landing and Starfall. When he arrived to King's Landing, telling the king his sister was dead and else, he surely spent a little time there, enough to get approached by Varys, who surely knew about Lya's pregnancy, and ask him about the boy, telling Ned he could shift him away to safety or something of the sort. Ned didn't know if the boy was going to have light or dark hair, he couldn't have, taking the boy as his bastard son would had been a great risk to everyone, so he gave it to Varys, a true loyalist to the former king. I am sure Ned did not know about Varys intentions or that Connington was alive, but we do know that they were already acquainted, for a brief moment. So, that boy, Aegon, is not truly Aegon, but his younger bastard brother, only that he has to take his brother's persona to seem legitimate, even if he is being deceived by Connington, Mopatis and Varys.

So, who is Jon Snow's mother then? Might as well by Wylla the wet-nurse or Ashara Dayne. His father might be Ned or Brandon, but I am more inclined to them both being Brandon and Ashara, due to the fact that Barristan had some affection for the girl, and he said someone broke her heart, and seemingly he grudges that person, but when he talks about Ned, he says he is brave, honorable, and more praise. So, it sort of points at Brandon. Ned would claim it's his son by Wylla because she was the wet nurse of the boy (his mother having killed herself) and he wanted to spare the dead Ashara the embarrassment. There are plenty of ways that could had gone, and plenty of reasons why Ashara could had killed herself. Her brother dead, Brandon leaving her heartbroken, Brandon and his entire family getting branded as traitors by a mad king who kills all those related to traitors and his brother being on the opposing side of his lover in the struggle and so on. Besides, taking Jon from the Daynes all the way north, giving commonfolk and other people reason to bauble about him carrying a baby, would had been a way to delude people from him carrying a second baby, Aegon, to King's Landing, making everyone think it was the same the whole time. But well, we are never truly given a reason to doubt Jon is Ned's bastard son in the first place, people just speculated over Rhaegar and Lyanna.

#2 King of the Starks

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 04:54 PM

The KG at the ToJ prove that Jon is legitimate and that Rhaegar and Lyanna did marry, and the Targs often used polygamy so they could marry more than two wives; and it wasn't outlawed.
If Jon had been a bastard then the KG would have travelled to Viserys, who would have been the rightful King in that case.
Varys didn't know about Lyanna's pregnancy, if he did then Ned would have mentioned it or Varys would have mentioned it when he and Ned were in the Black Cells, so Varys doesn't know about R+L=J.
And JonConn only got (F)Aegon to look after about 6 years after The Sack, so if (F)Aegon didn't have the traits (platinum hair, purple eyes) Rhaegar did then Varys and Illyrio probably couldn't have gone through with the plan that they have for (F)Aegon.

#3 Aristogato

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 05:00 PM

Rhaegar was already married. Polygamy was part of the valyrian faith in any case, the Targs left that behind centuries ago. The Kg was at the tower of Joy under Rhaegar's command most likely, if we follow your reasoning they should had been with Elia in any case, but most likely Rhaegar sent them there prior to the battle in case they lost.
Varys not knowing about a prince's bastard is a plain insult to the man himself, don't underestimate either Varys or Littlefinger, they know stuff, that's what they do. Probably he said nothing to Ned because there was nothing to be said, Ned wouldn't like the idea of Varys grooming a Targ bastard for king. Besides, he thought Ned was going to the wall, so you don't tell a guy who vouches for Stannis "Hey, remember that boy I took from you, yeah, he will arrive in a couple of years surely".
And the Aegon part, that is what I meant, that he is Rhaegars son, they look alike, not the same surely, and Jon Connington can tell.

Edited by Aristogato, 28 July 2013 - 05:04 PM.


#4 Ygrain

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 05:07 PM

Rhaegar was already married. Polygamy was part of the valyrian faith in any case, the Targs left that behind centuries ago. The Kg was at the tower of Joy under Rhaegar's command most likely, if we follow your reasoning they should had been with Elia in any case, but most likely Rhaegar sent them there prior to the battle in case they lost.
Varys not knowing about a prince's bastard is a plain insult to the man himself, don't underestimate either Varys or Littlefinger, they know stuff, that's what they do. Probably he said nothing to Ned because there was nothing to be said, Ned wouldn't like the idea of Varys grooming a Targ bastard for king. Besides, he thought Ned was going to the wall, so you don't tell a guy who vouches for Stannis "Hey, remember that boy I took from you, yeah, he will arrive in a couple of years surely".
And the Aegon part, that is what I meant, that he is Rhaegars son, they look alike, not the same surely, and Jon Connington can tell.

You really may want to check the reference guide on the first page of each pinned R+L thread, as some of the points that you are trying to push are covered there.

#5 Pikachu101

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 05:43 PM

Does it really matter if Aegon's a fake and Jon's the real deal? When did blood ever determine who sat on the throne anyway?

What Aegon has:
Varys
Jon Connington
Dorne
An army
Stormsend
Targaryen features

What Jon has:
No connections
No army
Questionable parents
Stark features

#6 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 05:50 PM

Rhaegar was already married. Polygamy was part of the valyrian faith in any case, the Targs left that behind centuries ago. The Kg was at the tower of Joy under Rhaegar's command most likely, if we follow your reasoning they should had been with Elia in any case, but most likely Rhaegar sent them there prior to the battle in case they lost.
Varys not knowing about a prince's bastard is a plain insult to the man himself, don't underestimate either Varys or Littlefinger, they know stuff, that's what they do. Probably he said nothing to Ned because there was nothing to be said, Ned wouldn't like the idea of Varys grooming a Targ bastard for king. Besides, he thought Ned was going to the wall, so you don't tell a guy who vouches for Stannis "Hey, remember that boy I took from you, yeah, he will arrive in a couple of years surely".
And the Aegon part, that is what I meant, that he is Rhaegars son, they look alike, not the same surely, and Jon Connington can tell.


No, it wasn't. Incest was a Valyrian practice, but polygamy was unusual, though not unheard of.

#7 Pliskin

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 06:22 PM

I had probably the same idea in an older thread (I I understood well your post) :
http://asoiaf.wester...ents-and-aegon/

#8 Aristogato

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 07:24 PM

Nice, but I don't really know if Ashara is Lemore, the thing is, we should consider if Tyrion would had met Ashara when he was younger at a tourney or anything, if he was ever allowed to assist by Tywin. If he never met her, well, maybe, who knows.
The people who believe Jon is Lyanna's son don't understand eye coloring becomes noticeable at some months of birth. Also, he could had resembled Rhaegar just as well, don't tell me he looked into a new-born babe and said "Oh, my, he has all the looks from her mother". I wonder what excuse would he make when someone asked him why his bastard son was purple eyed, silver haired. "Yeah, there was this lysene woman no man of the army saw me with" makes perfect sense.

#9 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 07:44 PM

Nice, but I don't really know if Ashara is Lemore, the thing is, we should consider if Tyrion would had met Ashara when he was younger at a tourney or anything, if he was ever allowed to assist by Tywin. If he never met her, well, maybe, who knows.
The people who believe Jon is Lyanna's son don't understand eye coloring becomes noticeable at some months of birth. Also, he could had resembled Rhaegar just as well, don't tell me he looked into a new-born babe and said "Oh, my, he has all the looks from her mother". I wonder what excuse would he make when someone asked him why his bastard son was purple eyed, silver haired. "Yeah, there was this lysene woman no man of the army saw me with" makes perfect sense.


A few people, like you apparently, want to pretend that the mere possibility that Jon could have had Valyrian coloring is some kind of hole in the R+L=J theory. It's just not. Jon doesn't have the Valyrian look, and never did. Even if he did, GRRM covered that contingency with Ned + Ashara rumors. So there is no problem here. End of story.

Even if that doesn't convince you, it certainly does not contradict the overwhelming amount of evidence in favor of R+L=J. Personally, I think it's odd that people can get hung up on such a non-issue as this, only to overlook all kinds of contrived silliness in their own R+L=J denial theories. I'm not trying to single you out OP, but having been here for over a year, it's something I've seen on a few occasions.

Here are some really good R+L=J essays that you should read if you already haven't:

http://www.westeros....n_Snows_parents

http://towerofthehan...ws_parents.html

Welcome to the forums. /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />

#10 Aristogato

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 07:57 PM

Thank you. The first post assumes Jon Snow was directly taken after being born. Maybe he was born a little earlier and wet-nursed by Wylla a bit, which requires some time, unless he wet-nursed him for a day. Ned could simply lie about his age, or not know precisely. I never had considered Arthur Dayne as a father, tho', that seems interesting.
And as far as I believe, no man can get married to two wives in Westeros, as no faith (which are required for marriage) of the continent allows for such a marriage. The Targaryens kept intermarrying as they did in old Valyria, but they had to accept the impositions of the Andal faith over them. Ever since they landed and converted, they took one wife each, even in times when they needed to expand their dynasty.

Edited by Aristogato, 28 July 2013 - 08:02 PM.


#11 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 08:00 PM

Thank you. The first post assumes Jon Snow was directly taken after being born. M


Right, but the potential for Valyrian coloring isn't an issue because Ned always had the Ashara Dayne rumors in his pocket.

#12 Aristogato

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 08:19 PM

Ashara did not have silvery hair, she had dark hair. Edric Dayne has silvery hair, and it would had been a problem if Jon had that too. Some Targaryens have blue eyes and silver hair, they do no always come together, so even if he saw his eyes, it was a hard chance he was taking. That, and he could be the Dark haired-grey eyed image of Rhaegar himself when he grew.
The second post shows evidence of Rhaegar and Lyanna having a child, but he could be Aegon as well as Jon. A crow eyeing Snow and saying "King" a couple of times doesn't make him a Targaryen. The Starks were kings for thousands of years, the Targaryens only three centuries.
Besides, Martin was asked by some curious readers if Brandon had any bastards, and he said he surely had, as he was a womanizer, but he didn't specify if they appeared or not in the books, so he didn't answer directly.

Edited by Aristogato, 28 July 2013 - 08:22 PM.


#13 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 08:38 PM

Ashara did not have silvery hair1, she had dark hair. Edric Dayne has silvery hair, and it would had been a problem if Jon had that too. Some Targaryens have blue eyes and silver hair, they do no always come together, so even if he saw his eyes, it was a hard chance he was taking. That, and he could be the Dark haired-grey eyed image of Rhaegar himself when he grew.2
The second post shows evidence of Rhaegar and Lyanna having a child, but he could be Aegon as well as Jon.3 A crow eyeing Snow and saying "King" a couple of times doesn't make him a Targaryen. The Starks were kings for thousands of years, the Targaryens only three centuries.
Besides, Martin was asked by some curious readers if Brandon had any bastards, and he said he surely had, as he was a womanizer, but he didn't specify if they appeared or not in the books, so he didn't answer directly.4


1) It doesn't matter. She's a Dayne, and therefore carries the gene for silver hair. So, no, it would not have been a problem if Jon had silver hair or purple eyes. Again, the potential Valyrian coloring argument is a non-starter.

2) How many northerners knew what Rhaegar Targaryen looked like? It's not like Ned was parading Jon around the Seven Kingdoms. The boy lived in Winterfell his whole life.

3) Then why the secrecy regarding Jon's mother? R+L=J offers a perfect answer to this question.

4) What does this have to do with anything?

#14 Pliskin

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 08:52 PM

4) What does this have to do with anything?

He's saying that Jon is Brandon's bastard.

#15 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 09:02 PM

He's saying that Jon is Brandon's bastard.


Okay, I think I quit reading at "His father might be Ned...". /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' /> But, in fact, Jon was born too late to be Brandon's. From the Citadel essay Who Are Jon Snow's Parents?

We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing (I: 25). This would place Jon’s birth within one month, give or take, of the Sack. As we know the war lasts “close” to a year which is often just referred to as a “year” (I: 96, 233), suggesting 10-11 months is likelier than 9 months. Given this, his conception seems to have been between 1-3 months into the war.


Brandon was killed prior to the war starting, so it is impossible that Jon Snow is his son.

#16 Aristogato

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 09:32 PM

Unless he was sired a couple of months earlier, which no-one would notice and makes sense for him to have a wet-nurse, new born babies need to be fed, you know. If he was fed at Starfall, he spent some time there. No one can tell he is just a couple months older. Mendelian genetics are too advanced for Westerosi, it would seem, only Ned noticed the "Dominant Baratheon dark hair", and he limited himself to parents, not grandparents, which means recessive traits are a mystery to them. Jon having silver hair, even if he wasn't Rhaegar's son, would had raised up too many questions.
His father still might be Ned by any other woman, there are plenty of those in Westeros. The "Nor Ned nor Brandon being Jon's dad" theory is based on Rhaegar and Lyanna having a child. Well, I'm telling you there is another possibility for the boy rather than just being Jon Snow, but people want it so hard. Aegon as Rhaegar's bastard makes sense for all we have seen, the most factual prophecies and events. In fact, Snow can still be Azor Ahai while Aegon would be the Prince that was promised, born of Ice and Fire, and according to Varys, the kind of King everyone would want. Only that he has a weaker claim than his aunt this way, making him the mummer.
Besides, you still underestimate Varys, the man has spies everywhere, and claiming that he doesn't know if Jon Snow is a bastard Targaryen goes against what we know of him. He has spies everywhere, specially at court, confidants in all circles. If Rhaegar dispatched the KG to protect his son and beloved, some of the men following Rhaegar in battle would had known they only kept one member of his guard (Selmy) among their ranks, and spoke about that later. The absence of those three wouldn't had gone unnoticed. And Varys not noticing the prince has taken a lover to a tower, her belly getting bigger each month, he would had been curious at least.

Edited by Aristogato, 28 July 2013 - 09:34 PM.


#17 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 10:34 PM

Unless he was sired a couple of months earlier1, which no-one would notice and makes sense for him to have a wet-nurse, new born babies need to be fed, you know. If he was fed at Starfall, he spent some time there. No one can tell he is just a couple months older. Mendelian genetics are too advanced for Westerosi, it would seem, only Ned noticed the "Dominant Baratheon dark hair", and he limited himself to parents, not grandparents, which means recessive traits are a mystery to them. Jon having silver hair, even if he wasn't Rhaegar's son, would had raised up too many questions.2
His father still might be Ned by any other woman, there are plenty of those in Westeros.3 The "Nor Ned nor Brandon being Jon's dad" theory is based on Rhaegar and Lyanna having a child. Well, I'm telling you there is another possibility for the boy rather than just being Jon Snow, but people want it so hard.4 Aegon as Rhaegar's bastard makes sense for all we have seen, the most factual prophecies and events.5 In fact, Snow can still be Azor Ahai while Aegon would be the Prince that was promised, born of Ice and Fire, and according to Varys, the kind of King everyone would want. Only that he has a weaker claim than his aunt this way, making him the mummer.
Besides, you still underestimate Varys6, the man has spies everywhere, and claiming that he doesn't know if Jon Snow is a bastard Targaryen goes against what we know of him.7 He has spies everywhere, specially at court, confidants in all circles. If Rhaegar dispatched the KG to protect his son and beloved, some of the men following Rhaegar in battle would had known they only kept one member of his guard (Selmy) among their ranks, and spoke about that later. The absence of those three wouldn't had gone unnoticed. And Varys not noticing the prince has taken a lover to a tower, her belly getting bigger each month, he would had been curious at least.


1) Except that he wasn't born a couple of months earlier, according to the author. Jon Snow was born when GRRM says he was; end of story. Btw, if Jon was older, via Brandon or Ned, why the lies and secrecy about his parentage? Remember, if we suppose that Ned is the father, and Jon is older than GRRM says, Ned did not dishonor Catelyn, because they were not married yet.

2) Gee, then I guess it's a good thing Jon didn't have Valyrian coloring, right? Again, this argument is a non-starter. The contingency has been accounted for. You can repeat this refuted argument all you want, but the possibility that Jon would develop Valyrian coloring - it didn't happen! And if it had, Ashara Dayne. But it didn't.

3) Okay, then why is the identity of Jon's mother a secret? There absolutely must be a good reason for Ned not telling Jon who his mother is, both in story and for the audience.

4) Now that is the pot calling the kettle black. You're the one who is trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. R+L=J has such strong support from people because there is a ton of textual evidence that leads to that conclusion. On the other hand, you're proposing a theory often using arguments that are poor at best, and already refuted at worst.

5) According to you. And, no offense, but you've demonstrated a certain ignorance wrt to R+L=J, so don't be too surprised if some of us don't agree with your interpretations. But even if you had perfect knowledge of all things R+L=J, you'd still just be guessing at the prophecies.

6) I what?

7) Oh right, because it's impossible for something to happen in Westeros without Varys knowing about it. (Sansa)

Edited by J. Stargaryen, 28 July 2013 - 10:58 PM.


#18 Sir Tan Lee

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 11:02 PM

Does it really matter if Aegon's a fake and Jon's the real deal? When did blood ever determine who sat on the throne anyway?

What Aegon has:
Varys
Jon Connington
Dorne
An army
Stormsend
Targaryen features

What Jon has:
No connections
No army
Questionable parents
Stark features


What Jon really has

The old gods
King of Winter
Azor Ahai
Ice Dragon
A Direwolf

#19 Aristogato

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 11:08 PM

How long do you think Sansa would be unnoticed? Varys knows Littlefinger has no natural born daughter. I bet he will keep an eye on him later if he already hasn't been. Martin stated the date of birth of Jon Snow? Please give me a link to that, that would help a lot.
Ned is always dodgy when asked about Snow's parents, that doesn't mean he does not mean to tell him, he even says he will eventually. As I said, maybe he didn't tell him because it's a sensible issue, for a fourteen year old boy, you know. But, of course, of all the possibilities he surely doesn't tell him because he is a royal bastard, and him knowing that would change everything. I believe something gone bad with his mother or father is a better excuse. I mean, is it really that important that he doesn't know he is Rhaegar's child? If Ned loves and trusts Catelyn, why not telling her at least, so she wouldn't bully Jon? And so on, I could really use the same arguments on the R+L=J theory.
Of course I am the only one trying stating this theory, Aegon was recently introduced to the audience, Jon's theory has been debated over quite some years. Most people made poor excuses as why he would be a mummer dragon, while I am actually using most of the R+L=J, at least the most solid of it, but rather thinking that R+L=A. You haven't yet refuted in any way that Aegon can't be a child of that couple, your only argument against it is that you believe that Jon was conceived by them. Please, tell me how he can be a mummer's dragon threatening Dany's claim while also discrediting all the arguments that are giving on the first link I posted.
As I said, the theory was mainly an Aegon theory, but you insist on the impossibility due to some small and vague hints that Jon is the child of that couple (Because the hints that there was a child could also be used for Aegon, which are the more factuals I was referring too, the only probable hint you have for Jon is the blue rose on the wall, and it is still very vague).
If you consider for a moment Aegon being the child of that union, most of the things stated about him making sense, then you can clearly see there are thousands of possibilities for Jon's parenthood, as this wouldn't deny the fact Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child.

Now, with all respect, no one knows who Jon Snows parents are, so we can't refute our arguments at all in most cases, specially when we are speculating about what might have happened if someone might have had some hair coloring or another. The R+L=J remains a theory until it's either proven or not, as well as this theory. I am simply giving what I believe to be reasonable arguments that lead me to believe the other possibilities, We are both guessing at prophecies, after all, and most of the textual elements you refer too would be contemplated in mine, only that considered towards another guy, Aegon. The ones that would point out Jon specifically as the result of L+R are almost none, and very speculative at least. She could had miscarried as well, which tends to give the mother a hard time too. So, I invite you to give me solid information that would refute my arguments, which are not mostly based on who is Jon's mother, but why would Aegon not fit that hole just as well, why does Lyanna HAVE to be Jon's mother and none other can, even if she had another child we don't know about or miscarried.
Besides, for your information, I have read a lot on R+L=J theory, and none of it has still deluded me on this other possibility. I do believe they had a child, that is what I state, but reading the fifth book a couple of times made me change my mind on who that child was.

#20 Aristogato

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 11:11 PM

What Jon really has

The old gods
King of Winter
Azor Ahai
Ice Dragon
A Direwolf

A mistake on the tense of your verb, I believe, he currently has some stabs on his body and Stark features, what he might have in the future is a complete speculation, while Aegon does have all that was listed.