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Strength of the Northern Houses


Lord Stark

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As far as I can tell those 35 houses are sworn to Casterly Rock and are all considered Noble houses. There are other houses in the Westerlands which are sworn to some of these houses but they are not counted in the 35

Well the Wiki shows only 20 Houses, and these include 2 extinct Houses - the Reynes and the Tarbecks - and 2 extremely weak Houses - the Spicers and the Westerlings.

Not sure where you get the 35 Houses from, but they are certainly not all second tier Houses. Some of them would be equivalents of the 6 Neck Houses sworn to the Reeds, or some of the Wolfswood Houses sworn to the Glovers, or the White Knife Houses sworn to the Manderlys etc.

EDIT

OK, I see the 35 Houses at the bottom in small print now. But they are similar to the 42 Houses sworn to the North. Not all of those 42 are second tier Houses.

As I said, there are many more Houses in both regions. We just don't know them all. So these numbers are meaningless.

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There are currently 42 active houses within the Westerlands. Houses which are sworn to houses other then the Lord Paramont are listed as such. Those 34(35 with House Lannister) houses are all listed as noble houses of the second tier rank with House Lannister as their overlord. There could be some errors, but this still seems to fit well with what we know of the Westerlands. 34 second tier houses doesn't seem odd to me.

I agree that there are more houses but what I do not agree with is that there are a ton more second tier houses. A few here and there we haven't heard of sure, but unlikely to be too many. We already have second tier houses with no informations and just names so we know the makeup of the land and politics. There are no doubt hundreds of third tier houses, and fourth tier houses and thousands of fifth tier house.

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45k is the number that was worked out by Ran for an RP book. At the time it was considers that the North, Vale, and Dorne were equal in strength but it is accepts now that Dorne is much weaker. 45k is also in the middle of high and low estimates.

Robb had 20k yes. But he had to gather them quickly, the North takes three times longer to muster then any other region because of its size. This has also been mentioned by GrrM, so don't be fooled into thinking that was all he could gather, it was just what he could gather in a hurray to save his father. Also some houses sent no troops and some as little as they dared.

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As I said, there are many more Houses in both regions. We just don't know them all. So these numbers are meaningless.

They are not meaningless. GRRM has been pretty consistent in describing both the North and Dorne as 2 of the weaker area's of Westeros and this is shown in their lack of noble houses. Just because this doesn't align with your view as the North being the secret power house of Westeros does not make it false.

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45k is the number that was worked out by Ran for an RP book. At the time it was considers that the North, Vale, and Dorne were equal in strength but it is accepts now that Dorne is much weaker. 45k is also in the middle of high and low estimates.

Robb had 20k yes. But he had to gather them quickly, the North takes three times longer to muster then any other region because of its size. This has also been mentioned by GrrM, so don't be fooled into thinking that was all he could gather, it was just what he could gather in a hurray to save his father. Also some houses sent no troops and some as little as they dared.

If you are going to refer to the Dornes new revised numbers than isn't it appropriate that you refer to the

while Dorne is considerably less.
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If you are going to refer to the Dornes new revised numbers than isn't it appropriate that you refer to the

while Dorne is considerably less.

Nothing has ever been stated that the North has had it troop numbers revised and lower as is the case with Dorne in aDwD. Instead we know how many troops some houses sent south with Robb, as well as troops called forward to fight the Ironborn, and the Hornwood war, as well as even more troops called forward during DwD. We also know that each one of the major Houses of the north can field more men then the entire Night's Watch, so at the very least 1000. We have pretty much seen 35k in the North already, and to work with that number then you need to take into account that 6 - 7 Major houses in the North who have not been seen to do anything have zero troops what so ever. Not considering the fact that we know each one can field at least 1000.

You would also have to lower the total troops of the Vale which doesn't make sense. Less then half the major houses of the region gathered and brought something like 20k I believe, don't have aFfC but I believe that was the number.

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Here are my estimates.

House Stark(including Tallhart and Glover) - 7,500 - It's an educated guess based on strength of House Bolton - whom the Starks managed to defeat multiple times

House Bolton - 5,000 - Roose collected 3,500 men. Ramsay collected an unknown number but it was enough to fight a campaign against the Hornwoods, get soundly beaten by Rodrik and still have 600 men left(at Battle of WF)

House Karstark - 3,000 - 2,300 with Rickard and a small army with Arnolf(no more than a few hundred)

House Umber - 2,500 - I've put them under Karstarks because these guys seem to suffer far more from Wildling raids than other lands

House Manderly - 8,000 - big city, silver mines, lots of money, fertile lands(not to mention huge lands - their holdings alone are nearly the same size as the entire westerlands)

House Dustin - 3,500 - They have southern(therefore more populated lands) and have big town as well

House Ryswell - 3,000 - Southern, warmer lands and the name suggests it has plenty of rivers, so land should be more fertile than rest of the North

House Reed - 2,000 - They were Kings once and strong enough to hold out for a long time - but they are also poor.

House Flint Of Widow's watch - 2,000 - I know nothing about them, so this is s conservative guess

House Flint of Flint's finger - 2,000 - same as above

House Hornwood - 2,500 - seems reasonable enough, considering they had men to send Robb and have enough to fight Ramsay for a couple of months - and still have a few left over who joined Manderly

House Cerwyn - 1,500 - their lands seem small since they are so close to WinterFell

Mountain Clans - 4,000 - already established in the books - they send 3,500 men with Stannis and unknown with Robb(they probably number more if the scratch the barrel)

Skagos - 3,000 - Unknown but there are 3 major lords(I'm guessing a thousand each) and they had enough strength to defy WF a hundred years ago(and to kill the ruling Stark)

House Mormont - 1,500 - Poor Island, small population but they manage these many probably because some of their women fight as well

Total ~51,000 - Note this should be the absolute max the North can cough up without going to extreme measures.

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Well, there's what you can call up vs. how many you dare send away at one time. Robb perhaps sent too many south of the neck. Mind you, he needed them, but in light of what happenned, an extra 1000 men at / near Winterfell might have made more difference than an extra 1000 by his side.

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There is absolutely no possible way the Starks aren't the most POWERFUL house in the north. They obviously have the best lands and most and they most certainly can all on the most men. There is no way they could have conquered the north and held it for so long against such aggrandizing and devious lords. I bet the stark can raise atleast 8 thousand men but really I think it has to be 10 thousand to maybe even 12 thousand. They are revered by even the south as an exceptional house so that means they have decent wealth and the lords of the north can be quoted saying that winterfell is the most prized real estate in the north. But to the main point they never would have conquered the north and been kings of winter and the north for as long as they did if they wernt. Every single northern lord fears the wrath of winterfell. In the beginning of the series Robb tells Jon umber if he didn't come south when Robb got back he would take his head and Jon umber didn't say anything because that's how overwhelming the Starks must be. Roose Bolton never dared attack the Starks untill Robb literally couldn't do anything to defend himself. No im assuming that the Starks probably have a pretty overwhelming force of men on there personal lands compared singularly to the other northern lords.

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LittleDragon

Number of Houses does not correlate to total armed strength if you don't know the average strength of each House. For example, if the Boltons succeed in eradicating the Hornwood line and keeping their lands, there will suddenly be one less House in the North, but that won't suddenly decrease the Northern strength by 2000. The Boltons will just be that much stronger.

So the number of Houses in the Westerlands don't have an impact on their total armed strength. We've already seen what they can raise when scraping the barrel and hiring mercenaries. It was around 50k men.

Divide 50k by 35 Houses, and you get an average strength of about 1400. This ties in with the average Southron House strength, given that the Florents are seen as a powerful southern House yet can raise only 2000 men. The average would therefore appear to be somewhat lower than 2000 in the South.

So you could give the West 100 second tier Houses if you want to, it won't change what we already know their armed strength to be. It will just make the average Westerland House weaker.

In the North the average House simply appears to be stronger than in the south, ruling far more territory. Maybe it is a legacy of the longer continuity of their history, with more time for consolidation of extinct Houses and a smaller influx of new Andal houses requiring seats and lands.

Whatever the reason, Lord Mormont says that even the weakest of the Stark bannermen can raise more men than the entire Night's Watch. That means even the Mormonts. Lockes or Cerwyns can raise more than 1000 men.

And we have already seen the likes of the Karstarks at 2800 and the Boltons at 5000 etc.

You are incorrect that Martin has ever called the North one of the weaker regions. This is simply not factual. You made it up.

Dorne, yes. The Stormlands and Iron Isles, yes. The North, no.

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In fact, when asked more recently whether the North is still on a par with Dorne after Dorne's downgrade, Martin evaded the question as usual on this topic, but started saying things like you have to remember that the North is much bigger than Dorne, it takes longer to gather all their troops etc.

Without giving a direct answer it is pretty clear that he considers Dorne and the North in a very different light.

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No it were more, he sended halfof his troops with Roose Bolton to Tywin, this where 16000 men according to the wiki.

Look at the tekst after battle of the grreen fork: http://awoiaf.wester..._the_Five_Kings

He didn't send half of his troops, he sended the footmen, the cavallery was the one that attacked Jaime, 4000 more or less. a little more, since some riverland lords joined him in the way.

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Didn't George just say in an interview recently that you shouldn't take the numbers quoted in the books as exact as the information is often wrong on purpose?

Indeed. However, he was referring to the average guy with medieval level intelligence, or someone speaking based on rumors and word of mouth.

When Robb says he has 20,000 men in his army when crossing the Neck, you can believe that. When some guy that has never been to Dorne says Dorne has 50,000 spears, then you have to seriously question it. Similarly, when Doran himself says they have nowhere near 50k, and are in fact the smallest of the Seven Kingdoms in terms of population numbers, then you can pretty much take it as fact.

It is all about the source in question.

EDIT

Hence, when Maester Luwin tells Bran that the Karstarks have arrived with 300 horse and 2000 foot, that is a number you can take to the bank. It is specific and highly accurate.

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  • 1 year later...

They are not meaningless. GRRM has been pretty consistent in describing both the North and Dorne as 2 of the weaker area's of Westeros and this is shown in their lack of noble houses. Just because this doesn't align with your view as the North being the secret power house of Westeros does not make it false.

I think the north at least could not be called weak... Doran Martell did say to Arianne how Dorne alone would not survive a war with the iron throne... But Robb declared the north independent. Doran is notoriously cautious, but this still a strong indicator that the north is reasonably powerful. GRRM may have said that the north had a sparser population than the other kingdoms, but it's also the largest kingdom, so I think it would even out... As far as i know, the north has no lack of noble houses, and on top of all this it has a easily defensible south border through moat cailin. I'm not saying the north is a secret power house, but they should be able to raise as many men as most of the seven kingdoms can, and probably more than dorne or the stormlands.
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Actually GRRM said who can raise how much soldiers. Starks are in the middle tier along with Dorne, Riverlands and the Vale. They can raise 45 thousand troops though with Dorne its stated they can raise 50k by Quentyn Martell but it might be exaggeration so Dorne can probably raise around 45k like the North. Westernlands can raise up to 50k troops and the Reach can raise from 80k to 100k. Stormlands can raise up to 30k and Iron Islands 20k. So to me North is in the middle. It just gets all the hype because most of the main characters are Stark. However North is the largest but that doesn't mean its the strongest, even though its large it doesn't have that much population.


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