Septa Lemore is?

[Newstar]

Lyanna Stark.

Way too old to be Lyanna Stark if Tyrion's right about her age.

I like Ashara for the symmetry of it: Elia's companion and Rhaegar's companion raising (supposedly) Rhaegar and Elia's kid.

I hadn't thought of Mellario, but she is in the right age range, and there aren't many female characters who are unaccounted for who fall in that range.

[Joe Pine]

Lyanna? Is there a theory about this?

Nope. I stuck it there to get shot down.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Nope. I stuck it there to get shot down.

There actually is, after she was in the bed of blood and Ned was carrying her body back to winterfell...

She smacked him hard on the head and he fell unconcious, not knowing Lyanna was a faceless man like Arya, then she changed her face to speta lemore and took the baby with her and left ned with a fake baby, then she travelled to Essos waiting for the day to return with Aegon, true king of the seven kingdoms

[Nami]

There actually is, after she was in the bed of blood and Ned was carrying her body back to winterfell...

She smacked him hard on the head and he fell unconcious, not knowing Lyanna was a faceless man like Arya, then she changed her face to speta lemore and took the baby with her and left ned with a fake baby, then she travelled to Essos waiting for the day to return with Aegon, true king of the seven kingdoms

:lmao:

[Joe Pine]

There actually is, after she was in the bed of blood and Ned was carrying her body back to winterfell...

She smacked him hard on the head and he fell unconcious, not knowing Lyanna was a faceless man like Arya, then she changed her face to speta lemore and took the baby with her and left ned with a fake baby, then she travelled to Essos waiting for the day to return with Aegon, true king of the seven kingdoms

:) oh yeah. I forgot..

[Jon of the Dead]

Why are all these theories about Septa Lemore and none about the real identities of the Half-maester and Rolly Duckfield? I think Lemore is just a soiled septa, nothing else.

[l3ol3o]

Mellario was still in Dorne when Lemore was with Aegon so no. Besides, if Mellario is Lemore than Doran would have known about Aegon.

Septa Lemore is actually Wenda the White Fawn from the Kingswood Brotherhood, which was led by Simon Toyne who was no doubt related to Myles Toyne, the head of the GC who sent Lemore to Aegon. The "white" in her name comes from the white septa's robes.

Hmm very interesting. Can you expand on this any more? I love all of your theories and this is the first time I've heard this.

[Nami]

Why every character must have a hidden identity?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Mellario was still in Dorne when Lemore was with Aegon so no. Besides, if Mellario is Lemore than Doran would have known about Aegon.

Septa Lemore is actually Wenda the White Fawn from the Kingswood Brotherhood, which was led by Simon Toyne who was no doubt related to Myles Toyne, the head of the GC who sent Lemore to Aegon. The "white" in her name comes from the white septa's robes.

If so, should we expect Lady Wenda (sounds more like a Manderly) Toyne to know who Aegon really is?

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Did Wenda have children? I don't recall that.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I still think Lemore is Wylla. /shrug

[Magic 8 Ball]

Rearrange the letters...

s e p t a l e m o r e

Pale Meteor....

Ashara Dayne...

or....

Ape Molester...

Danaerys Targaryen...

[Pinhorn]

If Lemore is Ashara Dayne, it could be possible that Aegon is the bastard of R+L which Ned gave to Ashara to keep safe as a last favor for a lover.

[The Taxman]

If Lemore is Ashara Dayne, it could be possible that Aegon is the bastard of R+L which Ned gave to Ashara to keep safe as a last favor for a lover.

I truly believe the Jon Snow we all know is not who he seems to be... he is indeed the mummers dragon. Aegon aka Young Griff is indeed the son of Rhaegar... and Lyanna.

[manting]

If Lemore is Ashara Dayne, it could be possible that Aegon is the bastard of R+L which Ned gave to Ashara to keep safe as a last favor for a lover.

Or Aegon could be Ashara's bastard. Or how about the septa that the Red Viper "despoiled"?

[corbon]

I know this topic has been covered, with several people theorising that she may be Ashara Dayne. However I've always kinda got the feeling that she may have been someone else.

We know that she must have been involved with the conspiracy to get Aegon trained and eventually landing in Westeros. I can't see how Vary's could have involved Ashara Dayne in the conspiracy.

Seriously?

Thats trivial. Ashara Dayne was Elia's personal companion. Her brother is Rhaegar's best friend and constant companion. Her and her faily are about as hardcore loyal to Rhaegar's family as possible, and famous for their honor and integrity. She's been off the public radar for a while (probably, due to her disgrace) so can easily disappear without it being a huge flag to anyone. She has purple eyes and can pose as mother to a purple eyed babe. She even lost a baby who would be about the same age as Aegon.

Its as simple as a raven message saying Elia, Rhaegar and Rhaenys are dead, but he got baby Aegon out and and is sending him by ship to pick her up and take him into secret exile. Or even a personal meeting with a conspirator/employee telling her that Aegon has been saved and is waiting offshore.

I did however, think it could have been someone else after reading ADWD and accidentally doing some research for my ASOIF Roleplaying game on Doran Martell.

My thoughts were that she could be Mellario of Norvos. I don't know if this a crackpot theory, but here are my thoughts on it. The "evidence" is admittedly flimsy, but we've only seen her in one book. So here it goes:

Lady Lemore:

She has dark brown hair.

She is in her 40s.

She has had children.

She worships the Seven.

Tyrion repeatedly mentions her breasts... Which leads me to think they must be big.

Thats not a logical requirement. I think you are confusing 'big' with 'bare'.

Jon Connington calls her Lady Lemore.

Tyrian repeatedly says she is "handsome" but not stunning.

Again... The evidence is light on.

But I think if she was Ashara, Tyrion would have been even more aggressive, although he is pretty full on about the Septa. And Tyrion never describes her as tall. And certainly Tyrion would have described her as stunning.

Ashara isn't known to be particularly tall. And what about Ashara would make him aggressive?

Beautiful at a party 20 years ago does not equate to "stunning" nearly twenty years later. Actually, "handsome" is a perfect fit, especially for a fit, older woman using no cosmetics and having no attendents.

Mellario of Norvos:

She is called Lady Mellario.

Arianne takes after her, who has long black hair... (I realise this is slightly off because Septa Lemore has dark brown hair)

Arianne is very pretty. ( Septa Lemore would be been pretty in her youth)

Arianne worships the Seven... Does Lady Mellario?

Arianne has an excellent figure and nice breasts

Mellario has had children

Mellario is about the same age as Septa Lemore (mid to late 40s)

The location around the Rhoyne/ Norvos is close

We know that Doran Martell and Mellario are still in touch with each other dispite being separated.

We know that Mellario left Dorne not long after Trystane was born (288 AL) Which is about the right time for Aegon to meeting Jon Connington.

We know that Septa Lemore has two travelling companions.. Yandry & Ysilla who are from Dorne.

Could it be possible that Mellario leaving for Norvos was just a ruse, and another plan by Doran Martell. Could it be possible that Doran's "friend" in King's Landing is Vary's? It wouldn't surprise me, as Vary's dislikes the Lannister's. And, which other major house would be better to involve in the Aegon conspiracy then the Martell's?

Its not quite impossible, but there is no substance behind it. All (almost) of your supposed clues fit Ashara Dayne better, as do several others not mentioned.

Worse, it fails to make sense on several levels.

- Mellario is known to be in Norvos. One of Arianne's co-conspirators is sent to her in Norvos for three years as his punishment.

- Its clear that Doran is unaware of Aegon's existance until he makes his move into Westeros. Which doesn't make sense (but is not impossible) if he's corresponding with Mellario/Lemore and they are not actually estranged.

- Lemore has golden skin - indicating probably a Dornish native, born to their hot fierce sun. According to Areo Hotah, the Norvosi sun is weaker and paler, indicating probably that Norvosi tend toward paler skin.

To me, the motive certainly fits... While the evidence is light... I feel there is enough of it to make this theory possible, maybe even probable.

Thoughts?

Even the motive is weak, much weaker than a motive for Ashara Dayne.

For all protetstaions otherwise, this is purely a theory created to avoid Lemore = Ashara, whether conciously or unconciously. And as usual, the arguments against Lemore = Ashara are either simply wrong (tall?) or illogical.

Not, by any means mind you, that Lemore = Ashara is yet a given. Its just infinitely stronger than every other theory on the subject thus far. And could be wiped out with a singe stroke of the pen by GRRM at any time.

She is just a septon named Lemore. Nothing more

Why are all these theories about Septa Lemore and none about the real identities of the Half-maester and Rolly Duckfield? I think Lemore is just a soiled septa, nothing else.

Why every character must have a hidden identity?

Not every character, but we have multiple pointers to this particular character having a hidden identity.

- Tyrion specifically thinks she has secrets, but explicitly decides to himself that he doesn't care to figure them out, focused as he is on the 'big' secrets of Griff and Young Griff's identities. ot that he is in a strong osition to figure her out anyway - Ashara Dayne is a minor footnote in a history book for him, as opposed to Jon Conninton, Hand of the King and Rebel general, and Aegon Targaryen, disfiguredly murdered infant heir to the throne.

- Lemore(IIRC) tells Griff at one stage that he is not the only one with secrets to hide - and the implication in the passge, IIRC, is about identities and that she also has a hidden identity.

- At one stage Griff makes a mental error and calls her "lady" Lemore (IIRC in his head only). She's clearly of noble birth.

Thats why Lemore's identity is oft-speculated.

[Sunstaff]

I don't have an arguement against Lemore = Ashara. If she is, well then, she is. And I was looking here: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ashara_Dayne

Which specifically mentions Ashara as being "tall."

I find it amazing how many people bagged me out on this. I might as well have said that Eddard isn't dead, and listed a few convoluted reasons.

I suppose, there just isn't enough evidence yet, either way.

As far as Doran being "unaware" of Aegon's existance, I think Doran is more aware of what is going on then he reveals, or lets on. He's the grass.

I think Doran represents the opposite of Eddard in alot of ways. Both Lords were far enough away from the Game of Thrones in KL to not be involved, they are at opposite ends of the Empire, and both geographically isolated. Eddard got summoned to KL and lost the game. Doran, got summoned and didn't go. He's playing the game very well.

More then anything,the things that confirm Mellario = Lemore to me are:

1) The ages are right

2) The Timeline is right

3) Both are known to be around the same general area.

4) At least Mellario is known to be alive, while Ashara isn't.

thats all.

[The hairy bear]

Why every character must have a hidden identity?

It's not every character, it's Septa Lemore. It's in plain sight that she's got a distinct backstory. She has had children, and she travels with a group where no one is what they tell they are. And a good judge of character such as Tyrion notices that her behaviour is not what one would expect from a septa (swimming naked, dressing up when the situation requires it, etc.). When Tyrion thinks that "there is more to her than mets the eye", it seems obvious that we'll discover some secret about her. Whether it will be hidden identity of something else, it remains to be seen.

Septa Lemore is actually Wenda the White Fawn from the Kingswood Brotherhood, which was led by Simon Toyne who was no doubt related to Myles Toyne, the head of the GC who sent Lemore to Aegon. The "white" in her name comes from the white septa's robes.

A much more likely explanation is that she was a member of House Cafferen in the Stormlands, whose sigil depticts two white fawns. Their seat of Fawnton may be within the Kingswood, and the fact that we don't hear anymore from the house during the series could be explained by the two very bad decisions taken twenty years ago (joining the Kingswood Brotherhood first, supporting Aerys a couple of years later)

I don't have an arguement against Lemore = Ashara.

Everyone who thinks about Ashara recalls her striking purple eyes. Ned, Catelyn, Meera in her tale. It's clearly her more distinct feature. Tyrion would have mentioned it... For me, it's enough to conclude Lemore=/=Ashara

More then anything,the things that confirm Mellario = Lemore to me are:

1) The ages are right

2) The Timeline is right

3) Both are known to be around the same general area.

4) At least Mellario is known to be alive, while Ashara isn't.

This doesn't "confirm" absolutely anything. Being alive, around forty and in the same continent that Lemore is a characteristic shared by milions of women.

But what we know of Mellario is that left a husband he loved because she was angry that he used her children as political pawns, and according to Doran she didn't understand that sacrifices had to be done for the good of the family. We know that he never adapted to Westerosi life and she despises the "game of thrones". Do you think that that woman would join a secret conspiration to put a boy on the throne? It seems very, very unlikely.

[corbon]

I don't have an arguement against Lemore = Ashara. If she is, well then, she is. And I was looking here: http://awoiaf.wester...hp/Ashara_Dayne

Which specifically mentions Ashara as being "tall."

Ok, fair enough o your part, except its a wiki, and not particularly reliable.

We'd need to check the quote, but the reference attached to that comment is from Catelyn's chapter, and she never met Ashara. I'm 95% certain that the quote mentions Catelyn thinking Ashara was (or so she'd been told, obviously) fair ('pretty', though it was often assumed that referred also to the known Dayne silver-blond hair colouring) with haunting violet eyes. I don't think tall was mentioned, but I could be wrong.

ETA: Ok, I was wrong. Ashara was reported to Catelyn as tall.

I suppose, there just isn't enough evidence yet, either way.

oh there is lots and lots of evidence, just no proof.

As far as Doran being "unaware" of Aegon's existance, I think Doran is more aware of what is going on then he reveals, or lets on. He's the grass.

Sure, but it doesn't gel. If he knew about Aegon he should have had plans in place right from the start, and he would never have been planning to set up with Viserys and then Dany originally, which was his plan for Arianne right from the word go. It doesn't make sense at all to tie Arrianne to Viserys if he knows about Aegon. Viserys is a basically a sideshow puppet to distract attention, a nobody, if Aegon is alive.

I think Doran represents the opposite of Eddard in alot of ways. Both Lords were far enough away from the Game of Thrones in KL to not be involved, they are at opposite ends of the Empire, and both geographically isolated. Eddard got summoned to KL and lost the game. Doran, got summoned and didn't go. He's playing the game very well.

That can be possible but it doesn't follow logically from what we know. Brilliant player or not, he's not omnipotent and if he knows about Aegon he's made some really odd moves.

To me, this looks like the same mistake commonly made with Varys. People think he's cool and brilliant so they immediately assume he's omniscient as well. But the truth is he has limited supplies of 'little birds' and they are almost certainly entirely inside the Red keep, which means that outside KL he's just a good, effective, spymaster and does not know everything that goes on.

More then anything,the things that confirm Mellario = Lemore to me are:

1) The ages are right

2) The Timeline is right

3) Both are known to be around the same general area.

4) At least Mellario is known to be alive, while Ashara isn't.

thats all.

1) Same with Ashara. She ought to be between 35 and 45 now (probably very close to 40), which fits perfectly with the unreliable guess by Tyrion (and what man can guess a middle aged woman's age reliably?) of 40+

2) Ashara's timeline fits almost to the precise month, given travel times etc.

3) You mean, on the same continent? Mellario is reported to be in Narvos. We know Lemore is not in Narvos. A very log way away from Narvos in fact.

4) All we know of Ashara's death is a 3rd party report. She's not 'known' by us to be dead at all. And shes not known to be dead by any character we've met either, just thats what they've been told.

For Ashara you also have:

correct hair colour

daily swim vs faked suicide-by-jumping-into-the-sea

right skin tone

natural connection to Aegon (which Mellario has only much more indirectly)

mysteriously unmentioned eyes

natural allure

known connection to Jon Connington

there are two supposed 'issues' for Ashara and both are easily countered and even provide a positive fit when thought about.

1) the non-eyes - obviously this is not actively 'against' since the colour wasn't mentioned. But for some reason people expect that because a young girl at a party had great eyes, 20 years later her older, drabbed down self must still have incredible instantly magical eyes. And when you wonder why the eye colour was missed out, its a potentially positive clue.

2) the age - 20 years ago Ashara was new at court, companion to a princess with a baby. Yet somehow people insist she must have been only 15ish, and that a 35yr old woman with no cosmetics and no pampering can't have her age mis-estimated by a man with a proven bad track record at age estimation (Jon and Aegon) by 5 years. She is was probably closer to 20+ at Harrenhal, and that would put her around 40 now, definitely close enough for Tyrion to estimate her age as 40+

Everything else, including motivation, storyline potential and (ETA: almost*) every little fact we have works perfectly for Ashara.

*Ok, we have one fact that doesn't fit perfectly. Ashara was tall. No mention of tall (or otherwise) with Lemore. But it can;t be said to fit perfectly, even if it is not ruled out.

But for Mellario you have a number of problems.

1) motivation - she's not a Martell, so the motivation isn't hers its Doran's

2) skin tone - from everything we can know, its probably wrong

3) location - Arrianne was told that Andrey was sent to Mellario, in Narvos for a 3 year exile. She could have been lied to, but its just unnecessarily complicated

4) connection - she has none. Doran has one, but its not personal the way Ashara's is. And it doesn't extend to Varys, or Jon Connington either.

5) the fact that Doran has always been chasing the Viserys branch, when if Aegon exists, Viserys is meaningless.

6) for the rest there is basically nothing to go on...

Everyone who thinks about Ashara recalls her striking purple eyes. Ned, Catelyn, Meera in her tale. It's clearly her more distinct feature. Tyrion would have mentioned it... For me, it's enough to conclude Lemore=/=Ashara

As a young woman at a party. Note that neither Catelyn nor Meera ever saw her. And Ned never describes her.

All we have is Selmy, who was in love with her, Meera's stylised story, and Catelyn's hearsay description.

Clearly, 20 years ago she had beautiful eyes and they were a significant feature. At least while she was prettied up and well groomed at court and the biggest party on a continent.

But twenty years later, after half a lifetime of drabness and avoiding notice?

Its not at all definite that her outstanding feature is still her eyes, especially when Tyrion is blatantly looking at two other outstanding features when he describes her.

Tyrion didn't tell us her eyes at all. Why is that now?

It is utterly irrational to conclude Lemore can't be Ashara Dayne because her eyes are no longer 'super-sparkly-magical' 20 years down the track.

[The hairy bear]

Corbon,

The fact that the people that never met Ashara talk of her eyes confirms even more that they were her most remarkable feature. Catelyn says she was "tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes", and the story of the KotLT makes her "a maid with laughing purple eyes". Barristan "only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes." Those are all the descriptions we have of Ashara. This woman is known, not only by the people that have known her, by her eyes.

I don't buy that after spending weeks in a boat with her Tyrion didn't notice that she had a very uncommon eye color just because he saw her naked now and then. And eye-color is not a feature that you can hide or disguise.

Also, the eye color is imporant in Tyrion's context. Purple eyes is a trait common in many Targaryens. Once she discovers that the Young Griff is supposed to be a Targaryen and that he dies his hair to avoid being noticed, one would think that the existence of a suspicious purple eyed woman on board would have crossed his mind at one point.