How did Eddard knew where exactly is Lyanna?

[sightofthesun]

I've always wondered if Rhaegar & Lyanna were betrayed by someone from Dorne. I mean its quite galling to have your King marry a Dornish girl, then run off with some other woman and chose to bring that woman back to your Dornish doorstep to set up a little love nest right under your nose.

:agree: It's also seems a pretty stupid idea on Rhaegar's part.

[Erkan12]

Not only that he went directly to the tower of Joy,but hi had with him 7 people ,double the numbers of the 3 kingsguard...like he knew they were there and brought with him enough man to beat them.Wel?

He hasn't got enough men. He survived because Howland Reed.

[Bloo Mew]

Maybe Barristan told him after the battle at the Trident?

[three-eyed monkey]

There could be other explanations - for example, Hightower staying at ToJ being a condition of Rhaegar's return. I can think about two reasons why Rhaegar wouldn't want Hightower come back to Aerys - he would reveal Lyanna's location to Aerys if the king ordered him, and he might also be an obstacle in removing Aerys.

Two good points, Ygrain. Perhaps Rhaegar did make a bargain with Hightower. Protecting Lyanna from Aerys would have been foremost on Rhaegar's mind I imagine, so that is a very good reason to make sure Hightower did not return to KL. But let's tease it out. Just say Hightower had orders from Aerys to bring Rhaegar back to KL, what bargaining power would Rhaegar have to make him stay? Were Rhaegar to command him to stay, Hightower would be operating under an order from the king that supersedes anything the prince might say. And if Hightower was staunchly loyal to the king over everyone, including the prince, then upon discovering Lyanna at the tower surely he would have returned to KL with Rhaegar and Lyanna both, and Dayne and Whent too for that matter.

What changes Rhaegar was planning on making, and who he was conspiring with in this regard, if anyone, is an interesting topic in itself. I'm not convinced Hightower would have been an obstacle in the removal of Aerys, despite his outward appearance. If Aerys could have been replaced by Rhaegar peacefully and even lawfully, via Grand Council or what have you, then I think the LC might see it as the honourable thing to do for the sake of the realm, House Targaryen, and even Aerys himself.

Maybe Barristan told him after the battle at the Trident?

I'm not sure Barristan knew. By his own admission he was never part of Rhaegar's inner circle.

[Ygrain]

Two good points, Ygrain. Perhaps Rhaegar did make a bargain with Hightower. Protecting Lyanna from Aerys would have been foremost on Rhaegar's mind I imagine, so that is a very good reason to make sure Hightower did not return to KL. But let's tease it out. Just say Hightower had orders from Aerys to bring Rhaegar back to KL, what bargaining power would Rhaegar have to make him stay? Were Rhaegar to command him to stay, Hightower would be operating under an order from the king that supersedes anything the prince might say. And if Hightower was staunchly loyal to the king over everyone, including the prince, then upon discovering Lyanna at the tower surely he would have returned to KL with Rhaegar and Lyanna both, and Dayne and Whent too for that matter.

What changes Rhaegar was planning on making, and who he was conspiring with in this regard, if anyone, is an interesting topic in itself. I'm not convinced Hightower would have been an obstacle in the removal of Aerys, despite his outward appearance. If Aerys could have been replaced by Rhaegar peacefully and even lawfully, via Grand Council or what have you, then I think the LC might see it as the honourable thing to do for the sake of the realm, House Targaryen, and even Aerys himself.

If Hightower travelled alone, he lacked the means to coerce Rhaegar, and coming back to report to Aerys would have been time-consuming and Rhaegar would have moved elsewhere meanwhile. I think that he was ordered to persuade Rhaegar to return at any cost, or, if there had been some negotiations prior, Rhaegar was perhaps dictating conditions.

[Bluesnow]

15, BTW, and a woman grown, not a child. Don't make the mindless mistake of thinking of her as a teenager, because there was no such concept in those times and children were raised differently and developed differently.

Ned himself thought of her as a child if memory serves me right >.>"

And we got people that went around calling Robb a boy even after he was crowned king.

Society expects certain things of these children, but the accepted reality is there's a big difference in experience and skills between a 14 "adult" and someone twice that age.

As for the OP... I always thought Howland Reed probably had something to do with it :dunno:

[Nami]

A brother who puts the revenge above his sister's safety has no rights at all.

Brandon was like a Stark version of Robert. I wonder if those two got along

They reacted the same way, with wounded pride.

In my opinion Robert didn't love Lyanna, his pride was hurt when Rhaegar took her from him.

Brandon was more interested in avenging his family and name by killing Rhaegar for shaming Lyanna, then to take the girl back home or see if she's alright, raped or whatever.

Men and their pride.

[Nami]

There could be other explanations - for example, Hightower staying at ToJ being a condition of Rhaegar's return. I can think about two reasons why Rhaegar wouldn't want Hightower come back to Aerys - he would reveal Lyanna's location to Aerys if the king ordered him, and he might also be an obstacle in removing Aerys.

I wonder why Hightower would obey Rhaegar though

He clearly did, but why? He supposed to follow the king's oders

[Ygrain]

I wonder why Hightower would obey Rhaegar though

He clearly did, but why? He supposed to follow the king's oders

In an absence of a direct order from Aerys, Rhaegar as a Crown Prince is perfectly entitled to issue orders, as GRRM basically states that the KG can be ordered about by the royal family members. Hightower wouldn't obey him only if Rhaegar's order contradicted one from Aerys, and even then, he might have to prioritize - for example, if he was ordered to bring Rhaegar back, then Rhaegar's return is more important than his own.

[MidnightAurora]

I have a question didn't the TOJ incident happen after the Trident? If so, why didn't Eddard take Robert with him? I read a couple different chapters where it implies that Eddard came to KL after the Trident and after that went to TOJ. I ask why not bring Robert and secondly they all arrive on horseback, so how did they get there and how did they know where Lyanna was? Aerys apparently knew because he called Rhagear back and Jaime mentioned Rhagear returned from the south and then went to the Trident to fight Robert. I am also wondering if Cersei and Robert ever consummated their marriage and if the last word Rhagear said was Lyanna and the story Cersei told Ned about their wedding night if it was Robert thinking of his battle with Rhagear and the last word he breathed.

[Ygrain]

I have a question didn't the TOJ incident happen after the Trident? If so, why didn't Eddard take Robert with him? I read a couple different chapters where it implies that Eddard came to KL after the Trident and after that went to TOJ. I ask why not bring Robert and secondly they all arrive on horseback, so how did they get there and how did they know where Lyanna was?

ToJ happened only after the Sack when Ned got mightily pissed with Robert. From KL, Ned headed to Storms' End and only frlom there to ToJ, with only a small number of companions, and those his trusted friends, so it can be quite safely assumed that by that time, he must have known that Lyanna was not held a prisoner. It is also clear that someone must have tipped him off about the location.

Aerys apparently knew because he called Rhagear back and Jaime mentioned Rhagear returned from the south and then went to the Trident to fight Robert.

Not necessarily - it is not clear whether Hightower knew where he was heading when he left KL, or if he went searching for Rhaegar and learned only later.

I am also wondering if Cersei and Robert ever consummated their marriage and if the last word Rhagear said was Lyanna and the story Cersei told Ned about their wedding night if it was Robert thinking of his battle with Rhagear and the last word he breathed.

“The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”

Plus, we have Cersei's accounts how Robert forced himself on her several times and how she got rid of his child, so, yes, it was consummated.

[three-eyed monkey]

Aerys apparently knew because he called Rhagear back and Jaime mentioned Rhagear returned from the south and then went to the Trident to fight Robert.

I don't think Aerys knew. He would have had Lyanna in KL as a hostage if he did imo. You're right that Jaime mentions Rhaegar returned from the south, but the south is a big place. I don't think he knew about the ToJ.

[Khal Shaggydog]

Interesting parallel brought up earlier, RE: older brothers.

Brandon rides to KL to threaten the Crown Prince when he suspects his sister of being abducted/raped. Most everyone else would realize that is asking, or begging, to be brutally murdered by King Aerys.

Viserys would have let the entire Khalasar rape Dany if they would then fight for him to restore him to the IT.

Just interesting.

I think its possible Varys and his little birds might have something to do with how Ned found out Lyanna's location. It seems logical that he was at least aware of, and most likely involved, in whatever rift was growing between Rheagar and Aerys. He would have been aware of the odd comings and goings of Rheagar and his contacts, most notably the members of the KG who are great at not spilling a secret, but not good at being sneaky. This might also inform Eddard's hatred for Varys when he shows up in KL during AGOT.

[Ser Lepus]

In an absence of a direct order from Aerys, Rhaegar as a Crown Prince is perfectly entitled to issue orders, as GRRM basically states that the KG can be ordered about by the royal family members. Hightower wouldn't obey him only if Rhaegar's order contradicted one from Aerys, and even then, he might have to prioritize - for example, if he was ordered to bring Rhaegar back, then Rhaegar's return is more important than his own.

Plus the king's madness was worsening, so it was likely that Rhaegar would soon be the one giving the orders, if only because Aerys would be telling them to kill the purple gnomes under his bed.

[corbon]

I don't disagree with anything you say here really, Corbon.

Well, thanks. But we should remember, this is basically exploring in the dark, speculating on ways things could have happened that would make sense and fit with what we know, but that we don't actually have any hard data on.

I think it is very plausible that Hightower set off not knowing where Rhaegar was, and probably headed for Starfall as you say. It is however curious that he stayed at the ToJ, presumably under Rhaegar's orders, rather than return to KL as Aerys might have expected of his LC. As you say, he was given a mission to bring Rhaegar back, not just send him back.

I don't think that our knowledge is that precise actually. I'm not even sure, from memory, that that was even implied.

If Aerys tells Hightower something like "These useless idiots can't run anything! Find me Rhaegar. He's now commander in chief!" then there is

a) no requirement for Hightower to actually return with Rhaegar, and

B) Rhaegar's new orders with regards to dispositions actually outweigh the kings old orders, so long as the king's safety is not compromised (and I imagine the King can still countermand the CiC, as I don't expect that they have quite so sophisticated structures in place).

Under normal circumstances an order from a prince should not override an order from a king.

That assumes there is an order from the king though...

Not to mention the CiC part above, where orders from the prince may well override older orders from the king.

But as Rhaegar tells Jaime he was considering making changes, is it possible that Hightower, as well as Dayne and Whent, was already on-board with these changes? Hightower was a very honourable guy by all accounts, so despite the line he gave young Jaime after the burning, what was he thinking privately? I think a man of honour must have been somewhat conflicted over his vows to protect a king who was burning people.

Its not impossible, but it doesn't fit with what we are told about Hightower.

I prefer simpler theories that do fit with what we are told/see of a character.

Two good points, Ygrain. Perhaps Rhaegar did make a bargain with Hightower.

This too is possible, though I prefer the simpler version where it isn't needed.

What changes Rhaegar was planning on making, and who he was conspiring with in this regard, if anyone, is an interesting topic in itself. I'm not convinced Hightower would have been an obstacle in the removal of Aerys, despite his outward appearance. If Aerys could have been replaced by Rhaegar peacefully and even lawfully, via Grand Council or what have you, then I think the LC might see it as the honourable thing to do for the sake of the realm, House Targaryen, and even Aerys himself.

Agreed.

I wonder why Hightower would obey Rhaegar though

He clearly did, but why? He supposed to follow the king's oders

And we don;t know exactly what the kings orders were.

We know the gist of them - get Rhaegar back, and Rhaegar will be in charge of the war effort.

thats what happened.

Seems like a successful mission to me. I don't see a need to complicate it by assuming more involved orders that were not fully successful.

I have a question didn't the TOJ incident happen after the Trident? If so, why didn't Eddard take Robert with him? I read a couple different chapters where it implies that Eddard came to KL after the Trident and after that went to TOJ. I ask why not bring Robert and

Robert was wounded at the Trident (in his fight with Rhaegar?) and couldn't move on immediately. Ned took the Advance Guard on to KL and Robert brought the main army a week or so later, after they (and he) had rested and recuperated.

After Robert arrived, Tywin presented Robert with the bloody bodies of the Targaryen babies. Ned was infuriated by this, and by Roberts attitude and they were estranged, and Ned immediatly rode out to Storms End where he ended the siege (probably diplomatically). From Storms End he disappeared and we seen him shortly after at ToJ. From ToJ he went to Starfall where he 'reappeared' to the world at large, with Jon. He then went back to KL (possibly sending Jon direct to Winterfell) and made up with Robert over Lyanna's death.

secondly they all arrive on horseback, so how did they get there and how did they know where Lyanna was?

Well, they rode obviously. :cool4:

Other than that, we don't know. It seems they rode from Storms End (the timing is about right, several weeks) but its possible they took ship to somewhere else first then rode, we have no clues.

Similarly, we have no clues how they knew to go there either.

Our best guess, is that Ashara Dayne maybe told them - it seems very likely that Starfall was secretly supporting ToJ (Arthur Dayne being there with Rhaegar, Starfall being relatively close etc and the sheer necessity for some sort of logistical support over months of time), but even that is just a guess based on indirect reasoning rather than direct clues.

Aerys apparently knew because he called Rhagear back and Jaime mentioned Rhagear returned from the south and then went to the Trident to fight Robert.

Earlier, Aerys didn't know. After that, we have no further evidence of any change in that situation, until Aerys calls for Rhaegar. We don't know exactly how or what the call was, but we know that Hightower, who was with Aerys earlier, is next seen where Rhaegar was, and Rhaegar returns.

It seems likely Aerys used/ordered Hightower to find Rhaegar, but didn't know himself where he was.

I think its possible Varys and his little birds might have something to do with how Ned found out Lyanna's location. It seems logical that he was at least aware of, and most likely involved, in whatever rift was growing between Rheagar and Aerys. He would have been aware of the odd comings and goings of Rheagar and his contacts, most notably the members of the KG who are great at not spilling a secret, but not good at being sneaky. This might also inform Eddard's hatred for Varys when he shows up in KL during AGOT.

Not impossible, but very unlikely IMO.

The little birds are only within the red keep. Outside that, Varys is merely a good spymaster. Nearly everything critical here happens a long way away from the Red Keep, so there is no reason Varys would have any particular chance to know about it.

[yasasbandara]

There. Is. No. Evidence. Lyanna's. Abduction. Has. Anything. To. Do. With. The. War.

War was started because Brandon committed treason, and Aerys over-reacted, and Jon Arryn refused to let Ned and Robert be murdered for no reason.

They weren't killed because of her youth hormones. They died because Brandon committed treason after choosing vigilanteeism as his first option. Neither investigation (basic fact confirmation) nor due processes ever entered his head, apparently.

This is an excellent argument.

Jaime Lannister also committed treason because he choose murder as his first option. He could have just talked to the Pyromancer before killing him. I mean, who would be crazy enough to cook ½ million innocent men women and children alive, right? And then, he could have asked the mad king nicely not to murder ½ million. I mean Lord Qarlton has already proved that this method totally works, right?

So Rhaegar or his girl are not to be blamed for the war.

Just like Roose Bolton is not to be blamed for his trueborn son’s death.

Bolton saw a women and wanted her. She was married to some fellow who was insignificant as a straw. The husband hadn’t asked permission to marry and denied the Lord’s right to the first night. So he hanged the dude and raped the wife below the corpse (which was his right).

He thought there would be no consequences. But the abomination called Ramsay was born (which wasn’t his fault. I mean, who asked the wench to go and get herself pregnant?). When Bolton realized that there are consequences to his actions, he still thought everything was under his control. Seriously, why would Domeric Bolton seek out Ramsay? What was he thinking??

As for Rhaegar, he saw a girl and wanted her. She was betrothed to marry some dude who was insignificant as a straw. Rhaegar just took her (which would piss a long list of people off but who cares, right?).

He thought there would be no consequences. But Brandon and his friends and their fathers were all murdered (which wasn’t his fault. I mean seriously, who asked Brandon to come knocking? What was he thinking?? Who asked his lunatic father to cook people alive?). When Rhaegar realized that there are consequences to his actions, he still believed everything is still under his control. He probably believed it till he found a warhammer sticking out of his chest. A warhammer so heavy that only a handful of people had the strength to wield it, including that insignificant straw of a man.

So you see, those young people were not responsible.

All this happened because of a certain way of thinking shared by many characters in the story. It goes like this,

1. If you want something, just take it.

2. If others get hurt in the process, they can be brushed aside, ignored or crushed at will.

3. There are no consequences to your actions.

4. Even if there are consequences, you are still in control.

This way of thinking seems to be responsible to much of the suffering in this story.

[Ygrain]

This is an excellent argument.

Jaime Lannister also committed treason because he choose murder as his first option. He could have just talked to the Pyromancer before killing him. I mean, who would be crazy enough to cook ½ million innocent men women and children alive, right? And then, he could have asked the mad king nicely not to murder ½ million. I mean Lord Qarlton has already proved that this method totally works, right?

So Rhaegar or his girl are not to be blamed for the war.

Just like Roose Bolton is not to be blamed for his trueborn son’s death.

Bolton saw a women and wanted her. She was married to some fellow who was insignificant as a straw. The husband hadn’t asked permission to marry and denied the Lord’s right to the first night. So he hanged the dude and raped the wife below the corpse (which was his right).

He thought there would be no consequences. But the abomination called Ramsay was born (which wasn’t his fault. I mean, who asked the wench to go and get herself pregnant?). When Bolton realized that there are consequences to his actions, he still thought everything was under his control. Seriously, why would Domeric Bolton seek out Ramsay? What was he thinking??

As for Rhaegar, he saw a girl and wanted her. She was betrothed to marry some dude who was insignificant as a straw. Rhaegar just took her (which would piss a long list of people off but who cares, right?).

He thought there would be no consequences. But Brandon and his friends and their fathers were all murdered (which wasn’t his fault. I mean seriously, who asked Brandon to come knocking? What was he thinking?? Who asked his lunatic father to cook people alive?). When Rhaegar realized that there are consequences to his actions, he still believed everything is still under his control. He probably believed it till he found a warhammer sticking out of his chest. A warhammer so heavy that only a handful of people had the strength to wield it, including that insignificant straw of a man.

So you see, those young people were not responsible.

All this happened because of a certain way of thinking shared by many characters in the story. It goes like this,

1. If you want something, just take it.

2. If others get hurt in the process, they can be brushed aside, ignored or crushed at will.

3. There are no consequences to your actions.

4. Even if there are consequences, you are still in control.

This way of thinking seems to be responsible to much of the suffering in this story.

Why is it that every single time when it is pointed out that the supposed abduction by itself was not enough to start a war, as NO banners were called until Jon Arryn raised hi in defiance of Aerys' order to deliver Ned and Robert's heads, someone comes with this strawman "argument" how Rhaegar didn't expect "consequences". Well, he apparently did, or else he wouldn't have gone into hiding. What he didn't, and couldn't reasonably expect, is that Brandon would be too dumb to ask if Rhaegar is at home in the first place before coming to yell "come out and die" - a sort of action that Rhaegar was most probably trying to prevent by not being available.

And as for "taking Lyanna", there is still this whole issue of her being a willing and perhaps even active participant, and not just an object to be removed from one guy to another, so the "insignificant dude" becomes yet another strawman as Lyanna didn't want Robert.

[yasasbandara]

Well, he apparently did, or else he wouldn't have gone into hiding. What he didn't, and couldn't reasonably expect, is that Brandon would be too dumb to ask if Rhaegar is at home in the first place before coming to yell "come out and die" - a sort of action that Rhaegar was most probably trying to prevent by not being available.

And as for "taking Lyanna", there is still this whole issue of her being a willing and perhaps even active participant, and not just an object to be removed from one guy to another, so the "insignificant dude" becomes yet another strawman as Lyanna didn't want Robert.

Even if Lyanna went willingly, how would that made a difference when she left absolutely no evidence to suggest that to her brothers or to anybody else? It all pointed to abduction, and possible rape and even murder. Did she and Rhaegar expect others to just sit back and do nothing??

If Brandon did nothing, it would have made a difference. Had he gone to the mad king and even suggested that Rhaegar made away with the girl, that action would be considered as treason by the mad king. Such an accusation would insult 1. The prince 2. His wife 3. The king’s family etc. The end result won’t differ much. Even suggesting that Joffery was made by incest was considered treason by Cersei. What would the MAD King do?

Basically, what you’re saying is if Brandon, Ned and Robert did nothing and meekly accept possible abduction, possible rape and grave insult at the hand of Rhaegar, this war should have been avoided. Well, they just couldn’t shrink that low. When you keep treating people like objects, sooner or later someone will response. As the Hound said, even a dog gets tired of being kicked.

As Littlefinger said, there are only “players” and “pieces”. Some pieces believe that they are players. Rhaegar believed that he was a player. Robert and the rest explained that they are better players.

[Ygrain]

Even if Lyanna went willingly, how would that made a difference when she left absolutely no evidence to suggest that to her brothers or to anybody else? It all pointed to abduction, and possible rape and even murder. Did she and Rhaegar expect others to just sit back and do nothing??

And you know how? There is zero information on this. We don't even know how, what and from whom Brandon learned, we don't even know whether his act was fuelled by rightful wrath at the supposed rapist, or an offended sense of honour at the man who seduced his sister.

And once again: drop that false dichotomy that the only alternative option to what actually happened was "sit back and do nothing" because that's simply not true.

If Brandon did nothing, it would have made a difference. Had he gone to the mad king and even suggested that Rhaegar made away with the girl, that action would be considered as treason by the mad king. Such an accusation would insult 1. The prince 2. His wife 3. The king’s family etc. The end result won’t differ much. Even suggesting that Joffery was made by incest was considered treason by Cersei. What would the MAD King do?

The same false argument as before. First, you DON'T know how Aerys would have responded to e.g. a diplomatically phrased inquiry to help find Lyanna sent by ravenmail. Second, Aerys' mental state grossly deteriorated during the Rebellion, so his responses before it stated wouldn't have been quite the same. Third, a deathwish against the Crown Prince is something that NO monarch can tolerate, sane or not.

Basically, what you’re saying is if Brandon, Ned and Robert did nothing and meekly accept possible abduction, possible rape and grave insult at the hand of Rhaegar, this war should have been avoided. Well, they just couldn’t shrink that low. When you keep treating people like objects, sooner or later someone will response. As the Hound said, even a dog gets tired of being kicked.

Actualy, yes, as it was Rickard as the head of House Stark who should have dealt with the issue, and, again, it doesn't mean that he should, or would, have done nothing - that would greatly depend on what information he had, and that we do not know.

[corbon]

Good job Ygraine, as usual.

Fingers crossed somethig might actually get through!