Compiling the "younger, more beautiful" queens

[Petyr Patter]

Because apparently I have to much time on my hands.

Cersei while still a girl sought out a woods witch nicknamed Maggy the Frog to have her fortune told. Of course, she couldn't ask nicely. She kicked the old woman awake, and threatened to have her guards beat her if she didn't tell her the future. She ends the encounter by throwing a potion in her face because the answers displeased her. Did Maggy the Frog's change her prophecy to make this unpleasant wart regret her actions? Was it actually a blood curse and not a prophecy?

Well, no matter what it is, the reading has so far been startling accurate. Cersei married the King, became Queen, and had 3 children while he had a lot more. However, the prophecy indicates she will not remain queen, and she'll stop being queen when another queen replaces her. I have read through the forum and found all the possible candidates for this great honor.

My purpose is not to "prove" who the future queen will be. Because like a race, it doesn't matter who was in first place the longest, it just matters who crosses the finish line first. It's just fun to speculate and thing about possibilities you haven't though of, and realize that it isn't nearly as cut and dry as some might think.

First, let's read the prophecy:

Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

It is somewhat popular to say “another” does not mean “another queen.” Baloney. The way the English language works, “another” has to refer to something in which there are more than one of. The only word in this sentence that makes a lick of sense is “queen.” It is another “queen.” Not “another person,” but “another queen.” I will entertain no argument to the contrary, because they all use weasel words and strictest interpretations of grammar to create ambiguity where there is none. That being stated, I'm all for non-literal queens, such as people nicknamed “Queen” or given a mocking title.

The other two requirements are “younger” and “ more beautiful.” While younger strikes me as a pretty quantifiable criteria, beauty is not. Indeed, as Cersei continues to age, she continues to lose her own beauty, making that “limiter” not so limiting. Heck, an errant Robert Strong swing of the sword might horribly scar her. So, by and large I ignore the beauty criteria, except when more obviously relevant.

I categorize pretty much every candidate I could think of and brought up on the forums. I give a brief description of how they are relevant or not relevant, and then I rank each of them on three categories: Fit, Poetry, and Path. All rankings are on a scale of 1-5, with 5 being the strongest candidate in this category.

Fit means how well the character fits the criteria of the prophecy: queen, younger, and more beautiful. Pretty straightforward. Partial credit is given to characters who don't quite fit a criteria of the prophecy, but there is a notable path on how to get there.

Poetry, which I define as "words that effect readers' emotions." Hence, how poetic that character's destruction of Cersei would be. Ideally, this would be a character who Cersei has grievously wronged or overlooked, or whose situation she created in her decision making. Maybe a better way to think of this category is “karma.”

Finally, Path is how easy it is to “path” the characters throw down and robbery of Cersei. Characters far away from Cersei are given less points, as are characters with fewer resources in order to beat the evil Queen. Motivation to seek Cersei out is also factored into her.

Example:

• Queen Petra Patter of Ohio: (Fit)=4/(Poetry)=2/(Path)=1. Well, she certainly is a queen, albeit a made up one. Being made up, she is also younger and more beautiful. Yet, she's never met Cersei, only hates what she's read about her. It is also not clear how a made up Queen will meet with Cersei in Westeros.

Actual Queens:

• Margaery 5/4/5. The so obvious it can't actually be her option. Margaery is already halfway there to throwing Cersie down and taking what she holds dear. She helped poison Joffrey, is getting Tommen to side with her against Cersei, and will soon be THE Queen, while Cersei fades to just being the king's mother. However, the biggest evidence against Margaery? Cersei thinks she is the rival. When has Cersei been right about anything?
• Danaerys 5/2/4. Certainly younger, and her beauty is constantly being brought up. She does plan on invading Westeros to take revenge against Lannisters... at some point. Yet, the two don't know each other, and Denaerys being the foil will likely lack that “poetic” revenge readers would prefer. House Targaryan is probably the only House Cersei hasn't outright attacked and kind of admires.
• Jeyne Westerling 5/4/3. She seems like a dark horse compared to the other two, since she has almost no power to throw down anyone. Yet, she is Maggy the Frog's great granddaughter. She is younger, already a Queen, and pretty enough to surpass an aging Cersei since beauty is subjective. Plus, there are several easy paths to see how both end up in the Westerlands in the next two books. She would undoubtedly like to get revenge on the House that is partially responsible for her husbands brutal death. Don't discount her.

Princesses in Line to be Queens:

• Myrcella 4/4/4. Will Cersei's own daughter cast her down? From what we've seen, she's perfectly content to sit around and enjoy Dorne's hospitality away from her psychotic mother and now deceased brother. Yet, she is officially Tommen's heir, and under Dornish law could be crowned queen with Tommen still alive. She is on her way to King's Landing. Will Myrcella pave the way for a new regime by pledging fealty to a Dornish/Aegon alliance? Will she strive to be the Queen Cersei always thought she was, but was anything but? There is some poetry here. Unfortunately, Myrcella took an axe to the face, and her beauty is at a low tide.
• Sansa 3/5/3. She is Robb's only heir known to be alive, and in theory should be “Queen in the North.” However, she is also in enemy hands. Though I wouldn't put it past Littlefinger to crown her “Queen in the North” to stir up some chaos, even if Bran or Rickon are revealed to be alive. She also is quite good looking and its not impossible for her to find herself in front of Aegon and become a Queen that way. Perhaps most importantly, she also has a list of grievances against Cersei a mile long, first and foremost demanding the death of Lady. To beat her original role model and take all she holds dear would be the most satisfying outcome of anyone listed.
• Shireen 4/3/4. A precocious youth, though one whose lingering grey scale scars probably take her out of the running for “more beautiful.” Still if Cersei takes some acid to the face and Stannis dies, she will have the Iron Bank funding her ascent to the Iron Throne. Marry the right Northern boy and the largest kingdom will back her. Plus, it would be nice for the only true Baratheon born heir who has been marginalized her entire life to be the one to lay low the traitor who tried to steal her family's legacy.
• Asha 3/1/1. She tried to crown herself Queen at a Kingsmoot, and failed. Apparently, this is binding on her, and the only chance she has to reverse the decision is if Euron dies and another moot is called. Theon can challenge it, but only as a candidate, not to get Asha elected. Still, every captain is a king (queen). Yet, she has had no interaction with Cersei and little reason to go to King's Landing.
• Val 3/1/1. I almost didn't include her in this section. Blood doesn't matter to the wildlings, and she is south of the Wall, so how does she become Queen Beyond the Wall? Still, her beauty is much expounded upon and the wildling find themselves in need of leadership. Now, how does she plan on getting near Cersei to cast her down?

Not Queens:

• Arianne 3/2/4. She is younger and is known to be a good looker. She is also on her way to meet Aegon. Can romance be far behind? How about a politically motivated marriage to cement an alliance? Of all the “not queens,” its easiest to see how she could become one. She is also gunning for Lannisters, but has a soft spot for Myrcella.
• Brienne 2/4/4 Not a queen, and notoriously ugly, but she has two things in her favor: Her nickname is “Brienne the Beauty,” and she is well on her way to stealing Jaime's heart... and indirectly his life. And who knows what else the Lady Stoneheart will have her do. Now with her new facial disfigurement, will “Queen of Beauty” be far behind? Longshot theory: she champions the Faith in Cersei's trial, and her victory ensures Cersei's loss of power, title, reputation, wardship of her children, and most likely her life.
• Mya Stone 2/2/2 Robert's oldest bastard, a girl working as a mountain guide in the Vale. Her father is an open secret, but she was never formally acknowledged. If legitimized, she could claim to be an heir of Robert, but she seems to really like her mountain and has not political aspirations. Yet, it was Cersei who refused to let her come to King's Landing, promising to kill the girl if she showed up, denying her her father. So, some poetry is there.
• Arya 2/4/3. Most of what can be said for Sansa holds for Arya as well, though to a lesser degree. She wouldn't be “Queen in the North” before Sansa, and she is to young and on the wrong continent to catch Aegon's affections. However, poetically, Cersei is on her hit list, and she does have a catspaw in Westeros...
• Nymeria 2/4/2. Yes, I just named a direwolf. One named after a queen, and appears to be a de facto “queen of the wolves” at this point. Definitely younger. Nymeria has a personal reason to kill Cersei, she ordered the death of her sister. Very, very dangerous. However, how does a wolf cast down Cersei? Cause her horse to throw her?

Queens, but Younger? More Beautiful?

• Selyse 2/2/2. I'm not sure her age relative to Cersei, but she is widely mocked for her facial hair and large Florent ears. Yet, she is a Queen, and would like to take what is Cersei's. Problem is, she's a bit faraway.
• Alannys Harlaw 2/1/1. Balon Greyjoy's wife. She is on the list because she is a queen, and that is the only reason. She is much older and mentally unfit with Alzheimer symptoms.
• Queen of Thorns, aka Olena Tyrell 1/1/4. Definitely not younger, so she is very much a stretch. She's also not a real queen, but nicknamed one, and her advanced age means she has little claim to “beauty,” even if Cersei should come down with greyscale. Still, her schemes are actively costing Cersei, starting with Joffrey.
• Queen of Whores 2/1/1. An otherwise unnamed camp follower (prostitute) who slept with the Frey commander at the siege of Riverrun. In a mockery of the North, he crowned her with Robb Stark's iron crown and dubbed her the Queen of Whores. Whereabouts are currently unknown, but the crown fell into Lady Stoneheart's hands. Speaking of which...

Lets Open up the Possibilities

• Any women would wear Robb's crown ?/3/3. Lady Stoneheart has it. If she wears it, does she qualify as “queen”? Or, she could give it to Brienne for some ploy, or give it to any number of followers of the Brotherhood looking to create a symbol of revenge.
• Anyone who marries Aegon 4/?/?. Sure, it could be Arriane, Sansa, or even Arya, or it could be a maid of the Vale to help bring that region on his side. Far to many women he could make queens to speculate to much.
• Anyone who marries Euron, Stannis, Mance, or a “King in the North.” Yeah, way to many to speculate.
• Any Queen of Love and Beauty 3/3/3. This is a title the winner of a tournament bestows upon a the women of their choosing. If they are smart, they are politically correct about it. Regardless, if Cersei should fine herself at a tournament, the winner of said contest could “crown” her rival then and there.
• “An Other.” A play on words. Maggy didn't say “another,” she said “an Other.” Will the Others be crashing down King's Landing soon? Its an “out there” theory to say the least, since people don't prophecy about the Others without screaming in terror.
• Cersei 3/4/4. Cersei has made a lot of bad decisions over the years, when she was younger and therefore more beautiful. Some of those decisions are returning with a vengeance, starting with the whole incest/treason ploy. Yet, its not really “casting her down.” And this flies against the wording “until there comes another,” since she's been there all the time. Still, it would be nice if all the terrible decisions (both morally and strategically) come back to ruin her.
• Lyanna Stark 4/3/1. Rhaegar crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty, and Lyanna effectively stole the hearts of Rhaegar and Robbert Baratheon, and (it is speculated) had a son worth having. Still, does Cersei actually value any of that? This is also a past action affecting the future, which as above goes against the wording of the prophecy.
• Loras Tyrel 2/3/3 Definitely not a queen, except by some modern slang. However, Cersei did set him up to do a suicidal charge. Also, she's trying to frame (poorly) his sister for treason. If the injuries are fake, then Loras Tyrel could appear to champion the Faith in the Trial, and in doing so "cast Cersei down."
• The High Sparrow and the Faith 1/1/5. Yeah, bear with me here. When you get right down to it, the High Sparrow has already beaten Cersei, and no one else has even come close to “casting her down.” The HS sniffed out her plot, beat the truth out of the confessing Kettleblack, arrested Cersei, got her to confess to some embarrassing sins, shamed her in front of all of King's Landing, and will soon try her for incest, treason, and deicide. She isn't walking away from with her power, her reputation, or her Regency. This is a women who survived/fool Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, the Tyrells, and who knows who else. Yet, its the Faith of the Seven that finally crushes her in the Game of Thrones. However, the Faith/High Sparrow is neither a queen, nor beautiful, nor young. The Faith doesn't even have a “Queen of the Church,” like medieval Christians had with the Virgin Mary. Yet, for those of you who insist the prophecy doesn't require a “queen,” well then here's your number one potential suspect.

[Pearlthegirl]

Excellent compilation of the possibilities! I'd up the "poetry" of Arya a bit since she resembles her Aunt Lyanna so much and wouldn't THAT make Cercei piss some small clothes! But I'm leaning towards Sansa as the actual, right now, simply because the payoff would be greatest for the reader. Or, at least, this reader, as Sansa's character has grown on me.

[Tywin Manderly]

Excellent compilation of the possibilities! I'd up the "poetry" of Arya a bit since she resembles her Aunt Lyanna so much and wouldn't THAT make Cercei piss some small clothes! But I'm leaning towards Sansa as the actual, right now, simply because the payoff would be greatest for the reader.

This! :agree:

[cocoalover1956]

Interesting analysis. I like the idea of Mya Stone being the younger and more beautiful queen, because its so poetic that one of Robert's bastards that she tried to kill will come back to haunt her, but it's also very unlikely since she's a bastard and might not even leave the Vale.

[Overlord of Skagos]

I think Loras counts as a queen too. :leaving: he gets a 5/5/5 i think.

[Dicer]

Danaerys Targaryen: 5/5/5

She is already a powerful Queen in her own right. She has armies, fire breathing dragons and in TWoW she is going to be focussed on KL and the Iron Throne.

The Lannisters played a role in what happened to her family. She is obviously not going to turn against Tyrion, so I think Cersei will get the brunt of her vengeance. Plus she will be accompanied by Tyrion who knows how to hold a grudge and wants to get even with Cersei.

Even putting aside the above reasons when has GRRM ever given us poetic, karmic payback for the Starks? That's not the kind of writer he is and I don't expect things to change in the future. Joffrey was killed by the Tyrells, Tywin was killed by Tyrion, Jaime lost his hand to Vargo and the Boltons will most probably be taken down by Stannis. I would cheer if Lady Stoneheart hanged Jaime, but that is not going to happen either. So I don't think any of the Starks will have anything to do with what happens to Cersei.

So Cersei will most probably be killed or removed from power by someone she is not closely connected with. I am thinking this is Dany. She has the means, the motive and the qualifications to do so.

Dany will be responsible for killing the remaining Lannisters just like Jaime and Tywin killed her family and helped end Targaryen rule.

[Pearlthegirl]

I think Loras counts as a queen too. :leaving: he gets a 5/5/5 i think.

Hmmmmm, I see where you're going there but.....really Satin, no? Loras is KG and all so not available. If the Jon/Satin shippers have anything to say about it, Satin is our only possibility.

Snort, chuckle!

[Lord of Dragonstone]

I don't think Jeyne Westerling will be the one, seeing as in the show they replaced her with a different character and ended up killing her, and GRRM told the producers how he's ending the series. If Jeyne was going to end up casting down Cersei, then they would have had to follow the books for sure.

[Blueberry Stark]

I don't have any idea who it will be, but I want it to be Margaery. It would be too funny if Cersei was right all along about Margaery, and in spite of her best efforts, Margaery takes her down. Although I love Cersei as a villain, and I'm indifferent to Margaery, it would be poetic justice for Cersei.

[Consigliere]

Nice work. I've always been partial to Sansa being the younger, more beautiful queen. If not her, then Cersei being responsible for her own downfall because of all the bad decisions she's made in the past has a nice poetic ring to it.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

The Younger More Beautiful Queen is obviously Loras. :rolleyes:

[Little Wolf]

It's worth noting that the other queen doesn't even have to be the ultimate queen of the IT. She just needs to be the one that takes Cersei down.

[Petyr Patter]

Interesting analysis. I like the idea of Mya Stone being the younger and more beautiful queen, because its so poetic that one of Robert's bastards that she tried to kill will come back to haunt her, but it's also very unlikely since she's a bastard and might not even leave the Vale.

I'll add her, but she's further away then Val from being a queen.

I think Loras counts as a queen too. :leaving: he gets a 5/5/5 i think.

Yeah, no. He isn't a queen by any slang known to exist in Westeros. He is probably recovering from some injuries. I'll add him, since several people like him, but don't expect a 5/5/5 rating.

I don't think Jeyne Westerling will be the one, seeing as in the show they replaced her with a different character and ended up killing her, and GRRM told the producers how he's ending the series. If Jeyne was going to end up casting down Cersei, then they would have had to follow the books for sure.

A reasonable point, but the show is not the books. It would not surprise me in the slightest if they kept out the prophecies all together, and Martin himself has said Jeyne Westerling would reappear.

[Good King Daemon]

When Maggy the frog said "more beautiful" is she talking about how Cersei currently is or how she was in her prime? If its how she currently is most of those you named could do it. If its in her prime only Dany, Sansa and possibly Margaery are possible in my opinion. Either way my money is on Sansa.

[PAC1990]

Although it lacks poetic justice as the OP said, I'm still thinking it will be Dany

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Danaerys Targaryen: 5/5/5

She is already a powerful Queen in her own right. She has armies, fire breathing dragons and in TWoW she is going to be focussed on KL and the Iron Throne.

The Lannisters played a role in what happened to her family. She is obviously not going to turn against Tyrion, so I think Cersei will get the brunt of her vengeance. Plus she will be accompanied by Tyrion who knows how to hold a grudge and wants to get even with Cersei.

Even putting aside the above reasons when has GRRM ever given us poetic, karmic payback for the Starks? That's not the kind of writer he is and I don't expect things to change in the future. Joffrey was killed by the Tyrells, Tywin was killed by Tyrion, Jaime lost his hand to Vargo and the Boltons will most probably be taken down by Stannis. I would cheer if Lady Stoneheart hanged Jaime, but that is not going to happen either. So I don't think any of the Starks will have anything to do with what happens to Cersei.

So Cersei will most probably be killed or removed from power by someone she is not closely connected with. I am thinking this is Dany. She has the means, the motive and the qualifications to do so.

Dany will be responsible for killing the remaining Lannisters just like Jaime and Tywin killed her family and helped end Targaryen rule.

I do agree it doesn't have to be poetic justice, so it could be anyone, afterall GRRM is trying to make his series as real as possible, and in real life poetic justice doesn't always happen

[Arya kiddin']

A very nice post OP. The three criteria you're using are fit, poetry and path. In my opinion, the first two are of vastly more importance than the third, as on the third we can only speculate, while our judgements on the first two can be more precise. Also you should note that path of the character can change quite abruptly, and GRRM will have to do so if we are to have any convergence in the coming two books.

That being said, I believe, unlike many people here that as far as prophecies are concerned, we'll get poetic justice. And I maintain that Sansa will be the younger more powerful queen, not Margaery, not Dany and not Myrcella. Not only will she be her downfall, she will show her that cruelty is not the only means to be an able ruler. Wait and watch her do it the Stark way. :P

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I am really hoping that it's Sansa. Cersei always thought of her as a "stupid little girl" and mocked her intellect and character. It would be sweet indeed to see the little bird peck Cersei's eyes out, in a manner of speaking.

Daenerys is a definite possibility, but while she has plenty of reasons to hate the Lannisters as a whole for what they did to her family, she doesn't have the same personal connection that Sansa does. With Dany it's more abstract, with Sansa it's what Cersei (personally) has done to Sansa and her family (personally). If it were Tywin, I think Dany would have a lot more personal motivation to Dracarys him.

The reason I don't think it will be Margaery is that Marg is not a POV character and I think that the younger queen will be someone with a POV. Though Marg has plenty of reasons to hate Cersei at this point, and the intelligence and connections to do something about it.

Jeyne's arc has never personally intersected with Cersei's, and she's a minor character. (And where is the GRRM quote saying that she will reappear in the later books?) Even when she was married to Robb we didn't get to see her that much - she has about four appearances in all, and only in two of those (when she talks to Catelyn in ASOS and to Jaime in AFFC) does she say much. Unless Jeyne comes back in one of the later books and her role is expanded, I don't think the YQ is her.

If it's Sansa, I will stand up and cheer. :thumbsup:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I vote for Val. The queen consort in the North!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Nice work. I've always been partial to Sansa being the younger, more beautiful queen. If not her, then Cersei being responsible for her own downfall because of all the bad decisions she's made in the past has a nice poetic ring to it.

This is also basically how I read it. Cersei thinks it's Margaery so it won't be her, and readers are somewhat led to think it'll be Dany, so it won't be her either.