How Do You Think Elia Thought About Lyanna?

[cocoalover1956]

The thing about Elia poisoning Lyanna or Jon is that it would be so obvious. A Dornish woman's brother is an expert at poisons and suddenly the rival and her son die of a mysterious illness? The North would point the finger at Elia immediately. She'd have to be more creative.

[belladeuil]

Excellent point but I was merely pointing out that poisoning Lyanna Stark and Jon Snow would be a better option for Elia Martell than poisoning Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

[Luthien Targaryen]

My opinion is that Elia knew and consented, reluctantly or otherwise. We can assume that Elia loved her children, but we don't know how strongly she felt about her husband. Their marriage was political and arranged, there is no reason love should come into it at all. Ok, Rhaegar seemed to be a very likeable chap, but so's Robert (to some people anyway) and we all know how harmonious and heart-felt his marriage was.

Elia was the sister of Doran and Oberyn Martell, she was playing the Game,probably more for long term reward than short term personal gain. I think that the plan was for a part Martell boy on the Iron Throne, and as far as we know, the last King with that much Dornish blood in him was Maekar, and that was a long time ago. Elia had secured that, she was the mother of both the eldest of the King's grandchildren and his only grandson, a seemingly healthy child. She also knew that she could have no more children herself. She was also from Dorne, where it's not so shameful or potentially embarrassing to keep a lover. She grew up knowing that adults had affairs outside of marriage, so if she was jealous she would have kept it to herself. My guess is that her plan was to ascend, on Aerys' death, to the place Cersei Lannister wanted to be, a trusted Queen Consort and then, in time, the mother of the king.

My view, totally without evidence, is that Elia was outwardly a quiet, dignified woman , but behind it all she was trying to pull the strings of power as shrewdly as Varys and Littlefinger do, and more shrewdly than Cersei... I think she either accepted that Rhaegar would take a mistress or even encouraged it as part of a greater plan or the PTWP business. (Wouldn't she have wanted Aegon to the best thing since the Conquest? That might be worth the ego knock of letting your husband have an affair, especially if you knew you could have no more children yourself and might not have been especially fond of him.). Rhaegar decided to keep his mistress in Dorne, how can the Martells not have know about it and consented?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The thing about Elia poisoning Lyanna or Jon is that it would be so obvious. A Dornish woman's brother is an expert at poisons and suddenly the rival and her son die of a mysterious illness? The North would point the finger at Elia immediately. She'd have to be more creative.

Of course it would be difficult. Elia's stuck between a really big rock and a really hard place.

My opinion is that Elia knew and consented, reluctantly or otherwise. We can assume that Elia loved her children, but we don't know how strongly she felt about her husband. Their marriage was political and arranged, there is no reason love should come into it at all. Ok, Rhaegar seemed to be a very likeable chap, but so's Robert (to some people anyway) and we all know how harmonious and heart-felt his marriage was.

Elia was the sister of Doran and Oberyn Martell, she was playing the Game,probably more for long term reward than short term personal gain. I think that the plan was for a part Martell boy on the Iron Throne, and as far as we know, the last King with that much Dornish blood in him was Maekar, and that was a long time ago. Elia had secured that, she was the mother of both the eldest of the King's grandchildren and his only grandson, a seemingly healthy child. She also knew that she could have no more children herself. She was also from Dorne, where it's not so shameful or potentially embarrassing to keep a lover. She grew up knowing that adults had affairs outside of marriage, so if she was jealous she would have kept it to herself. My guess is that her plan was to ascend, on Aerys' death, to the place Cersei Lannister wanted to be, a trusted Queen Consort and then, in time, the mother of the king.

My view, totally without evidence, is that Elia was outwardly a quiet, dignified woman , but behind it all she was trying to pull the strings of power as shrewdly as Varys and Littlefinger do, and more shrewdly than Cersei... I think she either accepted that Rhaegar would take a mistress or even encouraged it as part of a greater plan or the PTWP business. (Wouldn't she have wanted Aegon to the best thing since the Conquest? That might be worth the ego knock of letting your husband have an affair, especially if you knew you could have no more children yourself and might not have been especially fond of him.). Rhaegar decided to keep his mistress in Dorne, how can the Martells not have know about it and consented?

Who is even talking about love? Lyanna is a political threat. A lethal political threat.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well, she was barren. And polygamy was nothing new to the Targaryens. Also Rhaegar told her about the prophecy. I think she understood him well enough.

Firstly she had gave birth twice, she wasn't barren Seconly, even if he told her what makes you believe that she gave a flying f**k about what he said?

Personally I believe that her opinion was similar to Dornish actions during RR, she was pissed off but she was afraid to do anything about it.

[Booknerd2]

No matter what Elia's opinion was or what she could do or say to Rhaegar, his mind was made up, whether though passion for Lyanna or his deliberate compulsion toward the prophecy and having that third child. The only thing she could do was stay in King's Landing and not go home to Dorne. Or she could, but alone? Because her children's place as Rhaegar's heirs was in KL. We don't know but I could guess that Rhaegar would not let her take them away. He is not having a baby with Lyanna to have them as first heir, HE NEEDS ALL 3 children with him, under his watch, for the prophecy. And if that is the case, Elia is not anyway going anywhere and leaving her children without her.

Also, Ashara Dayne leaves her service to go back to Starfall. What did Ashara tell Elia was the reason for leaving? How was, basically, her notice put in as lady in waiting? And Ashara is certainly not telling her, which I think is the real reason that Oh, Arthur asked that I go back to Starfall to be near TOJ to help Rhaegar and Lyanna. Maybe those Ashara baby and involvement with a male from Harrehnhal Tourney rumblings start somehow by Ashara having to tell Elia something to get out of KL and back to Starfall. And then when things go down later, that is how the rumor escalates. That would explain how Selmy, in KL as King's Guard at one point finds out that the girl he loves, Ashara, leaves KL.

Would Ashara lie to Elia and tell her she is pregnant? Is that the price to pay to get out of her service permanently? You can't say you are sick. Elia would expect it to be temporary and that Ashara would come back to court. Also, it would prevent Elia's relatives from Dorne sniffing around Starfall and checking to see when Ashara was returning to their sister, or if what she said was true. Especially with stuff going down regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna in future.

If Elia and Ashara were not just friends but seemingly good friends at one point, she might have done her brother Arthur a huge favor.

Ashara could have felt guilty too at how events unfolded. She leaves and Elia and Rhaenys and Aegon get killed, and she helps her brother Arthur but he dies too. She helps in the name of Rhaegar and Lyanna and the prophecy, and now the people that cared for her and that she loved and that relied on her are dead.

[Wmarshal]

Firstly she had gave birth twice, she wasn't barren Seconly, even if he told her what makes you believe that she gave a flying f**k about what he said?

Personally I believe that her opinion was similar to Dornish actions during RR, she was pissed off but she was afraid to do anything about it.

Personal I see no reason why anyone would believe Rhaegar. Targs screwing up prophecies out number right.

[Wmarshal]

No matter what Elia's opinion was or what she could do or say to Rhaegar, his mind was made up, whether though passion for Lyanna or his deliberate compulsion toward the prophecy and having that third child. The only thing she could do was stay in King's Landing and not go home to Dorne. Or she could, but alone? Because her children's place as Rhaegar's heirs was in KL. We don't know but I could guess that Rhaegar would not let her take them away. He is not having a baby with Lyanna to have them as first heir, HE NEEDS ALL 3 children with him, under his watch, for the prophecy. And if that is the case, Elia is not anyway going anywhere and leaving her children without her.

Also, Ashara Dayne leaves her service to go back to Starfall. What did Ashara tell Elia was the reason for leaving? How was, basically, her notice put in as lady in waiting? And Ashara is certainly not telling her, which I think is the real reason that Oh, Arthur asked that I go back to Starfall to be near TOJ to help Rhaegar and Lyanna. Maybe those Ashara baby and involvement with a male from Harrehnhal Tourney rumblings start somehow by Ashara having to tell Elia something to get out of KL and back to Starfall. And then when things go down later, that is how the rumor escalates. That would explain how Selmy, in KL as King's Guard at one point finds out that the girl he loves, Ashara, leaves KL.

Would Ashara lie to Elia and tell her she is pregnant? Is that the price to pay to get out of her service permanently? You can't say you are sick. Elia would expect it to be temporary and that Ashara would come back to court. Also, it would prevent Elia's relatives from Dorne sniffing around Starfall and checking to see when Ashara was returning to their sister, or if what she said was true. Especially with stuff going down regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna in future.

If Elia and Ashara were not just friends but seemingly good friends at one point, she might have done her brother Arthur a huge favor.

Ashara could have felt guilty too at how events unfolded. She leaves and Elia and Rhaenys and Aegon get killed, and she helps her brother Arthur but he dies too. She helps in the name of Rhaegar and Lyanna and the prophecy, and now the people that cared for her and that she loved and that relied on her are dead.

HE wasn't with the kids he needed. HE was in Dorne.

Ashara was pregnant.

[Booknerd2]

HE wasn't with the kids he needed. HE was in Dorne.

Ashara was pregnant.

If Rheagar won, which I believe he was trying to do, he would be back in King's Landing eventually and the goal was to have all three children with him. If he wanted to win and remove Aerys, which many speculate was what he was hinting at with Jaime, all three heads of the dragon, his three kids, would be with him. He lost and it didn't happen that way.

We DO NOT know for sure that she was pregnant. There is a chance Selmy is going with rumors.

[Lord Defiance]

She probably found it absolutely smashing!

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Feelings of abandonment and anger would be reasonable for a woman in Elia's situation. Well if you didn't add the political threat element, that ought to piss and make her afraid. You got to feel for her, Elia is really far more of a tragic figure in those events than Rhaegar and Lyanna themselves. She is sickly, then her husband abandons her for another woman and she is stuck with mad Aerys who keeps her and her family as hostage. Then the war and the tragic result.

[RavenKing23]

"That fucking Jezabel!"

[the conquering bastard 25]

It would be wiser for Elia Martell to poison Jon Snow and Lyanna Stark rather Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Jon Snow would pose a threat to her children, it would be safer for them if he were dead. He would have the backing of the North and likely the Riverlands and the Vale as well due to the Arryn-Stark-Tully marital alliance. He will also have the support of the Reach since the Tyrells do hate the Martells. Aegon VI could only rely on the Dornishmen who are not well liked in the Seven Kingdoms. The strong Dornish presence was one of the reasons for the Blackfyre rebellion. As for sharing the Seven Kingdoms between the two boys, why would Aegon share something that was his by right and why guarantee would there be that Jon Snow is content with half when he could fight and quite possibly win all? Even if Jon Snow did not want to claim the Iron Throne, Lyanna Stark could persuade him to do so as Alicent Hightower supposedly did to Aegon II. Jon Snow's children could threaten Aegon VI's children in the future, even if Jon Snow and Aegon VI grew up to be best friends. Maegor Targaryen was Aenys Targaryen's strong right hand but when Aenys Targaryen died, Maegor Targaryen usurped the throne from his half-brother's son. It is safer for Aegon and Rhaenys Targaryen if their half-brother was dead and Oberyn Martell is more than capable of looking after his niece's and nephew's welfare. As for raising them to have brotherly love for each other, how would that be done? Rhaenyra Targaryen's children and Alicent Hightower's children were raised by their mothers and picked up on their mother's dislike for each other. Would Jon Snow be taken away from Lyanna Stark and raised by Elia Martell? Would Aegon and Rhaenys Targaryen be taken away from Elia Martell and given to Lyanna Stark to be raised? From a legal and political point of view, it would have been better if Rhaegar Targaryen tried to sire a third child from Elia Martell, kill her and than remarry. Westeros' social structure is not made for polygamy and children of polygamy and trying to fit legal polygamy into a legal monogamy society would be chaotic. The Targaryens did practice polygamy but that was hundreds of years ago when they still had their dragons living.

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the dislike between the mothers. So that goes even further, treat Lyanna like a human being instead of a home wrecker, that might go along way. Jon was Robb's best fucking friend. Cat treated the boy like shit the only time that she mentions he's name is when she tells him that he should have been lying in that bed. Yet dispite all of that Jon is still championing his sister Sansa lady lannisters' rights. So it's not like Jon's a disloyal human being. Aegon would still have domain of the entire realm, Jon and Rhaenys would still swear fealty to Aegon as king, but to split the load or leadership or ruling they each get there own region to rule in Aegon's name, but no one child feels as if they are being despoiled of their rights. And they have something to do instead of plot and play the down fall of Aegon.

[Anath]

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the dislike between the mothers. So that goes even further, treat Lyanna like a human being instead of a home wrecker, that might go along way.

Because Lyanna treated Elia like a human being when she decided that running away with Elia's husband immediately after Elia had almost died giving birth to his heir was such a great thing? Right, what's almost dying and being left to face the humiliation after the romantic escapade! Nothing to worry about!

This is supposed to be Elia's inspiration for treating Lyanna like a human being? This is supposed to reassure Elia that good Lya would never, ever think of advancing her interests and her children's interests to Elia and her children's detriment? Please.

The thread was not about how Elia would treat Lyanna. How we treat someone is an intentional choice. The thread was about what Elia thought of Lyanna. She had zero reasons to think well of her.

[Lord Damian]

What could she do about it? Atleast he told her/explained to her, I guess? She is Dornish, I bet she was jealous as Dornish women, highborn seem to be very strong willed and alpha.

[Lewton]

I like to think that GURM getting so many people to defend a clear case of infidelity (choosing the nicest way to describe what Rhaegar did) is an intentional trick that will have a delicious pay-off eventually.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Feelings of abandonment and anger would be reasonable for a woman in Elia's situation. Well if you didn't add the political threat element, that ought to piss and make her afraid. You got to feel for her, Elia is really far more of a tragic figure in those events than Rhaegar and Lyanna themselves. She is sickly, then her husband abandons her for another woman and she is stuck with mad Aerys who keeps her and her family as hostage. Then the war and the tragic result.

Yes. Rhaegar and Lyanna have a "tragic romance" my ass. Elia was the real victim here; but oh no, Rhaegar fans will tell you she was happy, willing and consenting of being abandoned in a pit viper with a mad man.

[Rorey Targaryen]

Feelings of abandonment and anger would be reasonable for a woman in Elia's situation. Well if you didn't add the political threat element, that ought to piss and make her afraid. You got to feel for her, Elia is really far more of a tragic figure in those events than Rhaegar and Lyanna themselves. She is sickly, then her husband abandons her for another woman and she is stuck with mad Aerys who keeps her and her family as hostage. Then the war and the tragic result.

Yes. Rhaegar and Lyanna have a "tragic romance" my ass. Elia was the real victim here; but oh no, Rhaegar fans will tell you she was happy, willing and consenting of being abandoned in a pit viper with a mad man.

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

THIS!!!

People eat up this "forbidden love" crap to the point where they'd rather not take off the rose tinted goggles and overlook the consequences of said "romance"; both for the individuals who were hurt because of it and for the realm at large.

[fuelpagan_tw]

It's a bit of an overstatement to say Elia was happy about Lyanna, that doesn't mean she wasn't a part of the plans and Rhaegar did all this behind her back. This is the song of Ice and Fire. I think Rhaegar thought of Aegon as the fire since Elia was from Dorne. His hook up with Lyanna would produce the ice portion of the song.

It's clear Lyanna loved Rhaegar, that doesn't mean Rhaegar loved Lyanna. His concern was with the prophecy and I think Elia would willingly help him fulfill this prophecy.

If Rhaegar actually rejected her for Lyanna, yeah she would be upset. I don't think that is necessarily what happened. If Lyanna was only a means to an end for Rhaegar and Elia knew this, she would probably feel indifferent about Lyanna. Elia probably had her own lovers as well.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I'm rather liking the idea that Elia was the mastermind, instead of a mere victim.

It reminds me of Aegon not being all that smart and his sisters doing a lot of the work of running things. Visenya did the warrior bit, started the Kingsguard, etc, and Rhaenys was the diplomat. Seems to me that Elia and Lyanna could well have been Rhaegar's Visenya and Rhaenys, only in reverse. If they had lived of course.

Our man Rhae Rhae does not come across as a mental giant. I could easily see his wife being smarter than he was.

And who says Elia gave a damn about who Rhaegar did in his spare time? She might have thrown a party when he left. While he was busy playing Bael the Bard, she had time to plan for solidifying her kids' position.

I tend to agree with the idea that the crowning of the QoLaB at Harrenhal was a signal to the lords there, either letting them know that Rhaegar was onto some scheme of theirs and wasn't going to let them get away with it, OR letting them know he agreed to the idea of deposing his father. The fact that Lyanna was the girl he crowned makes me think Rickard was the one leading the charge on that. He sure as hell wasn't going to give that crown of roses to Cersei!