Emperor of Thorns (The Broken Empire Trilogy #3) by Mark Lawrence (SPOILERS)

[polishgenius]

To reply to a few things from Manfryd's post (and again, I'm not spoiler-tagging coz the topic title clearly says SPOILERS in big letters, so for anyone still reading who hasn't finished the book: vanish).

The killings of Gilded Guard captains would not go unpunished if it were truly a Praetorian Guard-type organization

Maybe: but they aren't. It seems to me that a lot of the institutions and cultural ideas that are had in this world are corruptions or crude apings of pre-builder notions - the Gilden Guard being one of them. It's something based on the Praetorian Guard and what-have-you by the people in the story; it isn't it.

but emulating old Hong Kong martial arts flicks is not the way to achieve gritty realism and believability.

Wherever did you get the impression that this series is about gritty realism? If that's what you got from the first two books then you read them very differently to me. It's been theatrical, right from the start.

The blatant killing of the Pope goes against the book’s own proclaimed idea that world is actually shaped by belief; whatever the Pope’s personal shortcomings, as head of the Christian Church she’s a powerful symbol – probably at least as powerful as the Emperor, if not more so.

I'm not really sure what you're on about here. It's stated pretty definitively earlier on that the builder ghosts are deliberately keeping any power the Church and Pope might be able to wield regressed. They shape beliefs and therefore the world, yes, but they don't wield any power of that sort themselves.

Also he killed the Pope, not the Papacy. There'd have been another one chosen shortly.

The stuff about Gelleth and Hamada.

While I do agree that he seemed a little quick to forgive Ibn Fayed, he's been dwelling on the horror of Gelleth since it happened and it's quite reasonable to believe that he wouldn't want a repeat of that. Particularly the slaughtering of innocents bit. Do bear in mind that when Gelleth happened he was still under the mental influence steering him 'worse', and when Hamada happened he still had the box, which had his 'worst' parts locked away and he was leaning a little further to the 'better'. To a certain extent the Jorg in those situations was two different people.

Jorg was supposed to be an opposite of that!

So no, Jorg is a mixture of various motivations and was even at his worst. And his ability to make friends (despite his claims that this is Makin's power) has been a feature from book 1, and was especially on display in book 2.

2. Olidan Ancrath: the Father figure who provided the drive for most of Jorg’s character over 2.5 books is left completely without closure as well. Jorg doesn’t even get to meet him! He simply dies off-stage, like a phased-out sitcom character whose actor had cancelled his contract. No explanation for the reasons of his action, no final confrontation, nothing! Another incredible disappointment!

For me, the point here was twofold.

The first: quite simply, there was and could be no explanation of his reasons. Quite simply, he's a total bastard, absolutely focused on his own success and that of his name. There was no resolution possible between them. Now, we could have had some satisfying revenge by Jorg on his father, but that would have undermined the other reason for that plotline.

Which is: it's a simple narrative swerve. We are told that two Ancraths need to join to break the power of the hidden powers and fix the world etcs. Obviously, we're invited to assume that this is Jorg and his father. Then his father dies, and at that point the reader has a choice: either assume that the prophecy is over, or put two and two together over who the Dead King is (I imagine most people will have by then) and what that means for the future. Me, while I figured out the Dead King early, the penny didn't drop over the prophecy till later, and I found it extremely satisfying when I did clock it. So it worked for me.

Also, I'm sorry but:

In fact, the reason I was drawn to your series was that it showed promise of going outside the usual "comfort zones" of fantasy literature.

When people say things like this it always gives me the impression that they don't read much fantasy. This idea of soft, comfortable, Eddings-ian happy endings being the norm hasn't been true for at least a decade.

[Manfryd Lothston]

All right, let's have ourselves a discussion!

I'm not spoiler-tagging coz the topic title clearly says SPOILERS in big letters, so for anyone still reading who hasn't finished the book: vanish).

Same here, then. Beware of spoilers!

Maybe: but they aren't. It seems to me that a lot of the institutions and cultural ideas that are had in this world are corruptions or crude apings of pre-builder notions - the Gilden Guard being one of them. It's something based on the Praetorian Guard and what-have-you by the people in the story; it isn't it.

Perhaps, but there are still issues of basic human nature that are being ignored here. No self-respecting military force is going to stand idle while a guy kills their commanders one by one, and the Gilden Guard was shown to be highly disciplined and loyal to itself. They didn't hold the Hundred as divine beings or supreme masters; if anything, Lord Commander Hemmet carried himself as the Imperial Custodian (and as such, above any of the petty kings and lords of the Hundred lands). To put it very bluntly, they didn't have to take Jorg's crap. As soon as he started shooting people, they could have just rushed him, tied him up, and carried to Vyene in a sack. Mission accomplished.

Just standing there waiting to be killed? That's unrealistic. It could work for GRRM's Unsullied - brainwashed slaves completely under the heel of their masters; but the Gilden Guard was put forward as a completely different type of organisation. I see no way Jorg's "cunning plan" would have succeeded if the Guardsmen weren't handed the "idiot ball" by the author.

Wherever did you get the impression that this series is about gritty realism? If that's what you got from the first two books then you read them very differently to me. It's been theatrical, right from the start.

Theatrical? Well, if you mean Punch-and-Judy style farce where the "hero" beats up a bunch of mooks with a stick, then maybe. But up until "Emperor"'s second half, the series seemed quite grittingly realistic, right down the avenue of Abercrombie and Martin.

I'm not really sure what you're on about here. It's stated pretty definitively earlier on that the builder ghosts are deliberately keeping any power the Church and Pope might be able to wield regressed. They shape beliefs and therefore the world, yes, but they don't wield any power of that sort themselves.

I was talking about beliefs. Look, the entire civilization is being threatened by a huge plague of undead. Jorg knows that Faith holds great power, though even the priests themselves aren't aware of it. Using this power of belief is humanity's best chance against the Dead King and his legions. The people's belief in the Emperor is actually the lynchpin of Jorg's entire plan to stop the undead armageddon. And though he knows that Christian faith is also an extremely powerful belief (probably even more powerful than faith in the Emperor), he still chooses to kill the living symbol of Christianity right at the most crucial moment in the struggle against their common enemy. Hell, the Dead King himself remarks that the Pope's death is very convenient for him!

So, what's going on there? He kills the Pope - possible hope for humanity's salvation; but he spares Qalasadi and Ibn Fayed, who actually have no stake or resources in this battle.

Also, what's with his donation to the building of the cathedral? Even with money available, it may still take years to complete (historical cathedrals were build over centuries!) If faith was so important, maybe he could spare the Pope and spend the 40,000 ducats in a more productive manner, like raising a bigger army to defend his lands against the undead and assassins!

Also he killed the Pope, not the Papacy. There'd have been another one chosen shortly.

But there isn't one now, and now is all that matters with the undead on the march to Vyene. Besides, you know well enough how tough it can be to elect Popes. Unless Jorg was planning to simply declare Gomst Pope (which would be illegitimate and could possibly cause a rift in the Church, further weakening people's faith).

While I do agree that he seemed a little quick to forgive Ibn Fayed, he's been dwelling on the horror of Gelleth since it happened and it's quite reasonable to believe that he wouldn't want a repeat of that. Particularly the slaughtering of innocents bit. Do bear in mind that when Gelleth happened he was still under the mental influence steering him 'worse', and when Hamada happened he still had the box, which had his 'worst' parts locked away and he was leaning a little further to the 'better'. To a certain extent the Jorg in those situations was two different people.

I was under the impression the box only held some of his memories, not his actual character traits. That would have been unnecessary and confusing for the reader, IMHO.

So no, Jorg is a mixture of various motivations and was even at his worst. And his ability to make friends (despite his claims that this is Makin's power) has been a feature from book 1, and was especially on display in book 2.

But it's not just making friends; it's making friends with enemies, who tried to kill his family, who want to conquer his wife's lands, and who seek to destroy all Builders (including his friend Fexler). Jorg killed for far lesser reasons than those. But his behaviour in Hamada is just so completely out of character I couldn't believe my eyes. All because of a few die rolls? He was going against mathmagicians, guys who specialize in deducing and affecting probabilities, didn't he account for the possibility that they might have incurred those die rolls?

For me, the point here was twofold.

The first: quite simply, there was and could be no explanation of his reasons. Quite simply, he's a total bastard, absolutely focused on his own success and that of his name. There was no resolution possible between them. Now, we could have had some satisfying revenge by Jorg on his father

Revenge, or overcoming the need for revenge, or just cold utility (killing him to inherit his lands) - something was needed, some sort of actual closure that would involve some action on behalf of Jorg. Olidan was the motivation behind most of Jorg's actions throughout the series, and an interesting character in his own right. But instead of dealing with this issue, Jorg sits on his hands for several years, and then Olidan conveniently dies by himself (?!) and is simply written out of the book, barring a short and empty "dream" appearance (which also evokes parallels with an actor being retired from a sitcom).

Furthermore, what was up with Katherine? The woman was set up perfectly as Jorg's semi-requited forbidden love interest; and is just left in the dust with barely a few words about her in the ending? Instead, we get Jorg having a quickie with Chella. Can't say I didn't enjoy that part, but, when Jorg himself heard of it, he "laughed and cursed {the storyteller} for a liar",.. so... not a fair exchange here as well.

but that would have undermined the other reason for that plotline.

Which is: it's a simple narrative swerve. We are told that two Ancraths need to join to break the power of the hidden powers and fix the world etcs. Obviously, we're invited to assume that this is Jorg and his father. Then his father dies, and at that point the reader has a choice: either assume that the prophecy is over, or put two and two together over who the Dead King is (I imagine most people will have by then) and what that means for the future. Me, while I figured out the Dead King early, the penny didn't drop over the prophecy till later, and I found it extremely satisfying when I did clock it. So it worked for me.

The prophecy itself felt like a deus ex machina to me; was it even featured in the previous books? Lading Jorg with the need to seek another Ancrath's support seemed unnecessary; he was always about achieving his ends with his own means. In any case, destroying a character just to fulfill a hackneyed plot device doesn't look like a good trade-off.

When people say things like this it always gives me the impression that they don't read much fantasy. This idea of soft, comfortable, Eddings-ian happy endings being the norm hasn't been true for at least a decade.

Which makes the ending doubly disappointing then.

And no, I don't read too much modern fantasy (since most of it, frankly, is not good literature). I have, however, read all the books by GRRM, Joe Abercrombie, R.Scott Bakker, and Steven Erikson, and had the chance to compare them to the... lesser fiction (such as the Forgotten Realms novels), so I do have a certain basis for comparison. The "Prince of Thorns" started out as breaking many molds, and I was hoping that we're finally having ourselves a true villain protagonist (or at least something close). But in the end, it all boiled down to the same "heroic" pattern of behaviour, losing the edge and originality. As I said, a pity.

[polishgenius]

To put it very bluntly, they didn't have to take Jorg's crap. As soon as he started shooting people, they could have just rushed him, tied him up, and carried to Vyene in a sack. Mission accomplished.

Just standing there waiting to be killed? That's unrealistic. It could work for GRRM's Unsullied - brainwashed slaves completely under the heel of their masters; but the Gilden Guard was put forward as a completely different type of organisation. I see no way Jorg's "cunning plan" would have succeeded if the Guardsmen weren't handed the "idiot ball" by the author.

You may be right here - I think that scene was all about what Jorg was doing, so the Guards' behaviour fell by the wayside a touch. Still, it was a great great scene that summed up Jorg for me, and was crucial to the end of the series, so I can forgive it.

Theatrical? Well, if you mean Punch-and-Judy style farce where the "hero" beats up a bunch of mooks with a stick, then maybe. But up until "Emperor"'s second half, the series seemed quite grittingly realistic, right down the avenue of Abercrombie and Martin.

I think this is where we differ- I don't see Abercrombie as particularly realistic. There's realism in it, to be sure, but all the books are written to have a certain self-awareness of their own fictionality- not breaking the fourth wall, but ocassionally bouncing off it. They're very, very shaped by genre conventions, both in the positive and reactionary sense. There's a certain amount of playing to the audience.

This series didn't do that to quite the same extent, but there is some. Jorg is and always was a very showy character.

Also, what's with his donation to the building of the cathedral? Even with money available, it may still take years to complete (historical cathedrals were build over centuries!) If faith was so important, maybe he could spare the Pope and spend the 40,000 ducats in a more productive manner, like raising a bigger army to defend his lands against the undead and assassins!

As unrealistic as it may have been plot-wise, to expect the cathedral to be finished in time (though they specifically state that it will be done 'soon'), the donation was nothing to do with faith, it was in order to get the Pope to come to him so he could kill her. His intent as I understand it was that she die when she comes to bless it, but since she came to him in Vienne, he just did it then instead.

But there isn't one now, and now is all that matters with the undead on the march to Vyene. Besides, you know well enough how tough it can be to elect Popes. Unless Jorg was planning to simply declare Gomst Pope (which would be illegitimate and could possibly cause a rift in the Church, further weakening people's faith).

I still don't really know what you're getting at with this criticism. Jorg's plan hinges on the fact that he knows that the belief gives him more power. The Pope doesn't, and he isn't about to give her and the church that ammunition - he views the Church as no more desirable than the Dead King. So while they non-specifically change the world, she doesn't have that sort of mystical power.

Where does the Dead King say the Pope's death made things more convenient? I can't find that.

I was under the impression the box only held some of his memories, not his actual character traits. That would have been unnecessary and confusing for the reader, IMHO.

It does hold his memories, but memories shape our character... it is distinctly implied that the Jorg after he opens the box is a darker person than the one before. It's also rather hinted that he's meeker while the box exists than before, seemingly because while the memories are locked from his conscious mind, they still work on his shame and regret (as personified by his visions of the baby).

Again, I don't disagree that Jorg made friends with them a bit too easily. But he was never going to set of a nuke in a city again.

In any case, destroying a character just to fulfill a hackneyed plot device doesn't look like a good trade-off.

I think it less 'hackneyed plot device', more playing with expectations. I do get your disappointment - it was an anti-climax, deliberately so - but it wasn't purposeless or done for the easy way out.

I could have stood to see more of Katherine at the end, I agree with you to an extent, but I don't think I'd have liked it if they'd got together, or resolved it in any other way with finality. That relationship was messy and didn't need or want a neat tidy bow wrapped around it at the end.

The prophecy itself felt like a deus ex machina to me; was it even featured in the previous books?

It was mentioned a fair bit, yeah.

And no, I don't read too much modern fantasy (since most of it, frankly, is not good literature). I have, however, read all the books by GRRM, Joe Abercrombie, R.Scott Bakker, and Steven Erikson, and had the chance to compare them to the... lesser fiction (such as the Forgotten Realms novels), so I do have a certain basis for comparison.

Fair enough.

The "Prince of Thorns" started out as breaking many molds, and I was hoping that we're finally having ourselves a true villain protagonist (or at least something close). But in the end, it all boiled down to the same "heroic" pattern of behaviour, losing the edge and originality. As I said, a pity.

I can see where you're coming from if you did see it that way: me, I thought it was obvious from the end of Prince of Thorns that Jorg was going to move into a more... responsible direction as the series progressed, and I can definitely see the path between the 'young Gregor' at the start of the series and the anti-hero he is in the end.

[flinn]

Who said the Pope was the "living symbol of Christianity"?

I didn't get that message at all in the books. In fact, I can't think of one single quote throughout the 3 books that may have even pointed towards that being the case. I do believe I saw several things pointing towards atleast some people thinking it was a corrupt institution.

If you are trying to compare to our real world, maybe Catholics think the Pope is the "living symbol of Christianity" outside of Catholics I don't think that at all. Of course Catholics tend to have symbols for everything though.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Who said the Pope was the "living symbol of Christianity"?

I didn't get that message at all in the books. In fact, I can't think of one single quote throughout the 3 books that may have even pointed towards that being the case. I do believe I saw several things pointing towards atleast some people thinking it was a corrupt institution.

If you are trying to compare to our real world, maybe Catholics think the Pope is the "living symbol of Christianity" outside of Catholics I don't think that at all. Of course Catholics tend to have symbols for everything though.

In that world, all the Christians we saw were Catholic, except for the Gilden Guard and their priests.

[jurble]

Finished the book, pretty good.

What is the Empire of Cyrana supposed to be? Something in Africa, but I can't make the connection. And why is the Caliphate part of the Empire? Seems kinda weird that a Caliph would be subordinate to a Christian Emperor.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

When the lichkin and Chella pass over the spot where the Pope died, the lichkin is pleased to have a potential adversary removed. I think that's what Manfryd is talking about.

I won't comment on everything, but Manfryd you're leaving out a significant piece of the puzzle in Liba, namely Jorg's awareness of the mathemagicians manipulating him. He let dice decide his fate and they chose "make friends."

Also, frankly, the understanding of Jorg as someone who will perform any heinous act of violence is a bit simplistic. He is very violent and ruthless, sure, but after Gelleth he had no particular desire to take innocent life. By my recollection he does so four times in this book:

- The girl in the pit, a choice that bothered him but was made out of a desire to give a merciful death and because it was the only way to even have a hope of saving himself

- The Gilden Guard captains and the Pope to protect his son

- The lords in the Roman Room to save, well, everyone

My point being that Jorg is no longer one to simply destroy a city and all who live there because it might help him. He finds a better way.

[Mark Lawrence]

When does the audiobook come out?

"New on audible."

http://www.audible.com/pd/?asin=B00EKOLDVC&source_code=soc_twi_nr

[The Hedge Knight]

Finished the book, pretty good.

What is the Empire of Cyrana supposed to be? Something in Africa, but I can't make the connection. And why is the Caliphate part of the Empire? Seems kinda weird that a Caliph would be subordinate to a Christian Emperor.

I think that Cyrana is basically all of Africa, besides the north. And I don't think the empire is strictly Christian, they seem more based around the idea of Empire than Church. Hell, they despise the bastards.

When the lichkin and Chella pass over the spot where the Pope died, the lichkin is pleased to have a potential adversary removed. I think that's what Manfryd is talking about.

I don't think the lichkin know. They only say he is happy at the bloodshed.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I don't have the book with me but I am 97% sure the lichkin is specifically happy to have an adversary removed. I got the very clear impression that it knew the Pope was dead even with the bodies having been removed.

Also - can anyone identify the building they met inside in Vienna? And even though I speak German passable well I can't figure out what the custodian would've been saying that sounded like "alert."

[red snow]

I thought it was an excellent ending to the series and my favourite of the three. There was actually a "lost-ish" ending that worked and while abrupt it finished things without having to spend 50 pages saying what happened to the rest of the brotherhood and Jorg's family. The data-ghost of Jorg was incredibly poignant and I hope his son would find a way of eventually switching him off - if ghost Jorg didn't find a way. I kind of hope Jorg's adventures weren't written entirely by his data-ghost though.

So many great scenes and tongue in cheek homages (good catch on the electric chair)

Chopping the head off his guide in the pit

killing his guards and tricking them into killing the threat to his son.

Airport security.

The martial arts/bruce lee hand gesture

The lichkin - still don't know what they were but they were nightmarish.

I think the clues for the identity of the Dead King were a bit obvious (although I never considered it before this book) and I think Mark left enough crumbs so that people could catch on at different stages. I'd be surprised if anyone was surprised by the time Jorg figured it out.

Someone upthread seemed to think there'd be more books set in the same world but without Jorg? I didn't get that impression and thought Mark meant he was done with that setting completely. I'd like to see how his son turned out but in this case think it's best left as is. Thinking on some of my favourite series of the last few years the ones (actually, one) that stands out is "the long price" and that's largely because it ends. I don't think any of the other book series I'm currently reading are finished. Although Adrian Tchaikovsky and Chris Wooding are both ending their series pretty soon as well. I'm curious as to whether ending a series is the best way to go. I know there are series that end but it seems to be the case that the setting is used for lots of other stories so in effect they never end.

[polishgenius]

Someone upthread seemed to think there'd be more books set in the same world but without Jorg? I didn't get that impression and thought Mark meant he was done with that setting completely.

See here.

[red snow]

Sweet :)

That's one way of carrying on in the world before Jorg "saves" it. i couldn't see much mileage in a post thorns setting.

I still appreciate series that do end though. Although i don't have a problem with extra as long as they are good.

Update: With regards to that link on Mark's next book a little speculation

Now I think of it there did seem to be a fair amount of set up for the Red Queen in EOT. With hindsight I guess this was pseudo set-up? Hopefully there will be more of the Silent Sister too as she sounded pretty cool. The axe-wielding barbarian could well be Sindri or one of his kin as well - they seemed pretty cool. Not sure if the lead turned up anywhere but that's probably a good idea if we don't want to know his fate. If the trilogy is handled well it may be fun to reread the congression scenes again when we know more about some of those present. It could also be interesting to see congression play out from some other character's POV

Only 24 hours and I'm already thinking too much about Mark's next book. Reminds me of what most authors say one of the most popular question at book launch signings is - "when's the next one out?"

[Mark Lawrence]

Sweet :)

That's one way of carrying on in the world before Jorg "saves" it. i couldn't see much mileage in a post thorns setting.

I still appreciate series that do end though. Although i don't have a problem with extra as long as they are good.

I think some series can roll on effectively if the cast is large so you're not forever with the same person or if the main character is interesting but fairly static (Sherlock Holmes and many other detectives for example) and the character is exercised against changing problems.

With Jorg the story was as much about him as about what he did, and there are only so many new bits of back-story and new epiphanies you can have before it starts getting silly.

[Rody]

Finished it and loved it.

So sad to see Jorg go though, but what did he actually do with William in the "underworld" was there a real wheel? or did he just materialize the wheel out of sheer will and saw it as the cause of all the wrong in the world and if he moved it, he would made it all right?

[Mark Lawrence]

Finished it and loved it.

So sad to see Jorg go though, but what did he actually do with William in the "underworld" was there a real wheel? or did he just materialize the wheel out of sheer will and saw it as the cause of all the wrong in the world and if he moved it, he would made it all right?

Good to hear!

Nothing after he died was real in the everyday sense of the word. The wheel was a visual metaphor for the task of willpower required to reset the change the Builders made - and it was their change (that the observer could influence matter/energy) that made it possible to undo the change with a sufficiently powerful desire to do so.

Where the idea of the wheel arose from is another matter. Some people have noted that the kind of quantum mechanical jiggery-pokery that the Builders carried out might need a high energy facility such as ... Cern maybe, or something similar... which is kinda wheel-like...

[Migey]

Okay tried not to read too much of this thread so as not to contaminate my own opinion. Note that I had not reread the last two books before reading this one so many details were quite hazy for me for books 1 and 2.

Ultimately I enjoyed it, and found it infinitely preferable to most of the standard drivel out on the market at the moment. That said, I think it was perhaps the worst in the trilogy.

I honestly can't pin down what exactly about this book felt wrong, and something definitely did, despite how enjoyable much of it was to read. The narrative structure was less cohesive and focused then book 2 (which is amongst the best and most interestingly structured fantasy I have ever read, alongside Scott Lynch's work). Parts often felt confusing or irrelevant. In KoT, the flashbacks comprised the meat of the story but were framed by the seige of the Haunt, and it worked very well to have seemingly irrelevant (yet enjoyable stories) eventually tie in to the main narrative. EoT just confused me at times however, as the three main narrative threads (Chellas, present day, and flashbacks) felt barely connected and awkwardly placed alongside each other until later in the book.

Character felt poorly handled in this book as well. The previous two books brimmed with memorable characters, major and minor, most of whom were well realised and developed. Yet these characters seem to have all phoned it in for this one. The fact that I remembered at least vaguely who most of the characters were helped, yet if I hadn't, I would barely have gotten any sense of who anyone returning was. Lawrence basically just seems to tell us to go check the last two books to see who these guys are or else too bad, since we rarely see the established character of many people. All newly introduced characters are well realised and developed though, which feels odd; half the book feels like the same old Lawrence and the other half feels oddly soulless. It's like a film in which all the new actors are enthusiastically delivering their lines, while the returning cast are all half asleep and blearily muttering the script in front of them. A very nice, well written script, yet the difference is noticeable.

Jorg feels slightly less consistent then in the previous books, but otherwise remains the major exception to the returning cast members, perhaps because he's just about the only one who continues getting development. Otherwise, Katherine was a major dissapointment; she may well have not been in the book, and I was dissapointed by lack of a resolution with Jorg and his father. Not sure how bad a thing that second point is though; dissapointing but not every real life story gets a resolution, I guess. Nonetheless, I feel like it could have made more of an impact on Jorg. Again, like Katherine, Jorg's father may well not exist in this book; the only bearing he seems to have on Jorg are from what we've seen him do in previous books (stabbing Jorg/the buisiness with his dog).

I may not have thought it was as good as it could've been, but there were a lot of scenes which were really fun to read, even if they were all pretty much Jorg being a slick badass. That said, he is only saved from being a mary-sue level character (in terms of his ability to survive and work his way through absolutely any situation) by how fucked up and ruthless he is doing it. Still, some of his feats just seem ridiculous (such as both times he single handedly takes down about 15-30 trained and dangerous enemies by his lonesome).

Wait, I've worked out one of the things that has been bugging me about the book, and that's the retconning. Well, not retconning, wrong term. But the repeated inclusion of specific events or aspects of the world or things that had absolutely zero mention in the previous books. I don't know how much of it was planned in advance, but a lot of it reads like Lawrence just made stuff up after finishing the second book to help round out the third or justify events. Maybe some of these things were just me not remembering mentions from books 1 or 2. I dunno, maybe this complaint isn't valid.

The ending was fairly good, despite being very abrupt and the entire climax being over before I had time to register it had begun. Some bits I disliked and found a little odd, but that's probably just me, and not a reflection of how good the ending was.

Despite my complaints, I still enjoyed reading this book and it's still better then tons of other stuff I could've read instead. Still. Preferred the first two (particularly book 2).

[red snow]

I thought the wheel was maybe a nod to "lost" but actually served a purpose in this case. I like the Cern idea too.

I also forgot about the set up of the larger empire that the Caliph was aware of. Actually there are a lot of things from the last book that I suspect are actually set up for future books now that I know there will be other stories set in the world.

The two women (red queen and the silent one?) instantly felt like characters that have a backstory. I'd like to see the seer with melted skin again too

[Emo Jon Snow]

I just finished the book, really had a lot of fun with this series, this book especially was revenge porn at it's finest. I like Jorg, I know he's not a good person, but he's a good character to have a story written about, and that's what makes an author great. Can't wait to see what's next.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

Now have gotten around to it and I quite like it.

The book continues the breathtaking pace of the series and while I would have often wished for a bit more description here and there (and maybe as pointed out above especially in the last few chapters), it'd probably only have hindered the narrative. Emperor of Thorns is a book which I often went back and read a paragraph twice. I've never done that in a book before. The set-up for the congression did seem to demand a bit more time spend there and I would've liked to see it, but it simply wouldn't have been Jorg there

I do think making Jorg's father die early was a brilliant move, circumventing the expectations, but on the other side, Katherine was really cut short. Why wasn't there more enmity between the two? And why did she sell out that cousin as the second delegate? it seems there should have come something after that, they were just a little bit too much "dream-team" (;-)) for me.

Probably needs a second read, which is necessary anyways. I did get by the last chapter or so that the citadel of Vyene was once a prison, but didn't get the electrical chair until I came to this thread. So many more references to discover still :)