Queen of Thorn's political smarts

[ejhawman]

She does seem overrated, at least among thee forums, given the exact accounting of her actions. I would assume she learns from many sources of information, and has her own spies, though not as many as LF or Varys.

Her positions were reasonable at the time. And she has not done so bad lately. She at least knows how to think her way around the affairs at KL. She is not the best player, but for the Tyrells she is the brains in the family, as far as we can tell.

[TalalOfDorne]

Her positions were reasonable at the time. And she has not done so bad lately. She at least knows how to think her way around the affairs at KL. She is not the best player, but for the Tyrells she is the brains in the family, as far as we can tell.

Yeah. Shes clever, but I wouldnt place her with Varys or LF though.

[WakeTheDragon]

People put to much stock into recent events. She's been playing the game for decades before any of this even happened.

[Ser No One]

what exactly has the Queen of Thorns done that has gotten her such a great reputation for scheming? i mean just looking through what we know about her she has many missteps.

1. She (supposedly) opposed marrying Margaery to Renly - it didn't work out but only because of shadow babies. Otherwise Renly becomes King, Margaery Queen, and Mace hand. that is a smart move.

2. She (supposedly) opposed marrying Margaery to Joffrey - Same thing really. Gives the Tyrells much more power and secures victory for the throne. (Targaryens coming isn't known to anyone at the time)

3. Plots to marry Sansa to Willas to gain the North - except she gets out-schemed by LF and this plan fails.

4. She killed Joffrey - Sure. But this was as much LF's scheme as hers, except she takes on all the risk of having to actually perform the deed while LF is safe in the Vale.

5. Gets thoroughly set up by Varys when he leaves the old Gardener coin she is known to use in the black cells.

am i missing something here? unless she is actually working closely with Mace and Mace isn't quite the oaf everyone makes him out to be, her reputation seems overstated.

1 - Renly wasn't king yet. He was but one of several pretenders. Had he lived, and lost, it might have been the end of House Tyrell.

2 - We all know what kind of person Joffrey was. There is nothing wrong in not wanting your granddaughter to marry such a monster.

1& 2 - Supposedly is an important word. Just because she lets people think this was her opinion doesn't mean it was. Especially if she really is a good player. Besides, most "good players" like to stay in the shadows (LF isn't even recognized as a player by some of his enemies). House Tyrell steps in the light after these two weddings, and is therefore endangered, which might explain why she (supposedly) didn't want them in a first place.

3 - LF is surely a better player than her, and maybe she didn't expect Sansa to be so stupid at the time.

4 - Working with one of the best players can only be considered a sign of intelligence IMO.

5 - This particular set up hasn't born any fruits yet. I'll wait to see what happens to her and her family because of that before saying she was outsmarted here.

[Chaircat Meow]

Yea, I fully agree with the OP. No idea what the big deal is supposed to be about her political 'smarts.'

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Okay, interesting post but.....

The Joffrey murder is something Littlefinger says he was involved in but we don't know to what extent, we can't say who had a bigger hand in it. The Tyrells or LF, although the Tyrells are front runners since they had so much more to lose if the marriage happened, Marg's life.

LF only 'beat' the Tyrells because Sansa told Dontos about the marriage. LF didn't actually outsmart anyone he threw a wrench in the plan, hardly high intrigue on his part.

And come on, being set up without your knowledge is hardly a reflection on you. Now if she knew about it and was powerless to do anything, well thats another story. If she found out Varys plotted against her do you think he'd be scared, I do.

[TalalOfDorne]

If she found out Varys plotted against her do you think he'd be scared, I do.

Im not sure about this. Varys seems to be a lot more dangerous than Olenna. In fact, a number of "players" are more dangerous than Olenna IMO.

[illrede]

The Tyrell-Lannister axis was a masterstroke. Getting it acceptable to the Tyrells in the long term likewise. Cersei is an insane creature with the mentality of an particularly spiteful insect; she would have had to tear the realm down and set it on fire to dislodge the Tyrell-Lannister axis but by gum if she didn't do just that!

(Almost literally. Cersei was happy that the Reach was being raided, and impeded a response however she could. Tyrell food supplies stabilizing regions that bow to Tommen is one of the biggest draws for House Lannister.)

Against stupidity the gods themselves...

[Light a wight tonight]

Yeah, I wondered about this just yesterday myself. Everyone on this board is "Oh, she is so smart, such a great player" yet she hasn't done anything all that impressive really.

She's actually pretty good until you compare her to Lord Petyr and Varys. Look at Doran Martell. He sends family members out on missions and gets corpses back. Lady Olenna has married her grand-daughter to 3 kings. I think that's a Planetos record.

Correction that's 2&1/5 kings.

[Blueberry Stark]

I find her hilarious, but I was very disillusioned by her character when she used Sansa to kill Joffery. Sure, she didn't necessarily intend for Sansa to be blamed, but she had to know that she had endangered Sansa. Befriending a victimized young girl to use her to inadvertently help kill another person, putting her at best into a precarious situation, is a cutthroat thing to do. I think Olenna is rather dangerous, at least if she feels that she's protecting her family, but I'm not so sure that she is the political mastermind that everyone sees her as.

[illrede]

Yea, I fully agree with the OP. No idea what the big deal is supposed to be about her political 'smarts.'

Look at it this way; would you describe Maergery as blatantly greedy or comically manipulative?

She's still getting painted as Bitch #2 fighting over the boy king. Put Cersei into any situation and you have the 'wrestling with a pig' problem for the other participants.

[Drexyon7]

Zero Tyrell deaths and Her granddaughter is Queen. But seriously until we get a Tyrell POV we don't have much to go on. My bet is she's a pretty good player but there are better (Varys/LF).

[Light a wight tonight]

I find her hilarious, but I was very disillusioned by her character when she used Sansa to kill Joffery. Sure, she didn't necessarily intend for Sansa to be blamed, but she had to know that she had endangered Sansa. Befriending a victimized young girl to use her to inadvertently help kill another person, putting her at best into a precarious situation, is a cutthroat thing to do. I think Olenna is rather dangerous, at least if she feels that she's protecting her family, but I'm not so sure that she is the political mastermind that everyone sees her as.

It's possible that LF told her that a plan was in place to get Sansa out of town. Or it's possible that Olenna didn't care. We'll never know.

[Blueberry Stark]

It's possible that LF told her that a plan was in place to get Sansa out of town. Or it's possible that Olenna didn't care. We'll never know.

LF probably did; Olenna didn't want Sansa to be accused of the murder, but I still think it's shitty to put Sansa into such a dangerous position. Isn't there somewhere else that she could have stored the damn poison that she kills him with other than in Sansa's hairnet?

[illrede]

LF probably did; Olenna didn't want Sansa to be accused of the murder, but I still think it's shitty to put Sansa into such a dangerous position. Isn't there somewhere else that she could have stored the damn poison that she kills him with other than in Sansa's hairnet?

I think Littlefinger provided the mechanism; it fell on the Tyrells to use it. And Littlefinger wanted to abduct Sansa.

[TalalOfDorne]

She's actually pretty good until you compare her to Lord Petyr and Varys. Look at Doran Martell. He sends family members out on missions and gets corpses back. Lady Olenna has married her grand-daughter to 3 kings. I think that's a Planetos record.

Correction that's 2&1/5 kings.

Twice thrice wed and twice thrice widowed isnt a record I would be proud of (Even though Mace was the one who wanted her married IIRC). And Im also not sure how much of a player that makes her.

And by the way its not Dorans fault that Oberyn and Quentyn died.

[The Duke]

Unlike LF or Varys, we don't know if there is more to her long term plans. For all we know, she has what is planned next 3-4 steps ahead and could have contingency plans for the collapse of House Lannister. Maybe not, but we don't know. I agree with most here that she isn't the best player in the game, but she has earned some respect, and of course is quite entertaining.

[direwienerdog]

Wasn't it Renley' s plan to place Maergery in Robert's bed at some point. He felt

Robert wouldn't be able to resist her because she looked like Lyanna? He would have needed Olenna' s approval to launch this plan to do away with Cersci.

It just shows Olenna was trying to figure ways to advance the Tyrell family from the start.

She may not be on par with LF or Varys but they don't have any military might to back up missteps.

You got to love her twin 7 foot tall guards left and right tho.

[The Girl King]

l'm surprised no one has mentioned it already but she did manage to obstruct a Targaryen marriage alliance. l wonder why though. Either way it worked out for her since the house is all but extinguished.

[Mikkel]

l'm surprised no one has mentioned it already but she did manage to obstruct a Targaryen marriage alliance. l wonder why though. Either way it worked out for her since the house is all but extinguished.

There was a thread not too long ago theorizing she wasn't actually the one saying no in that situation - of course she'd never admit as much. Remember never to take what people say at face value :)