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Littlefinger & Varys *spoilers for ADwD*


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18 replies to this topic

#1 nat655

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 05:59 AM

Was just wondering, following the revelation at the end of ADwD r.e. Varys, whether anyone else might support the idea that these two are in very, very close cohorts. Clearly, Littlefinger was influential in the deaths of Joffrey and Jon Arryn and seems to have little hesitation in strengthening his position to the detriment of others. Varys meanwhile is slowly trying to weaken house Lannister and (amongst other motives) restore himself to power. I personally think the two are closely linked, with Varys' motive for this being in the knowledge that Littlefinger has Sansa and thus a Stark who could probably invoke loyalty in the Northmen following the Targaryen return to the iron throne.

#2 Frozentree

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:08 AM

Littlefinger... the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing.

Varys in private conversation with Illirio. Unless your theory is that Varys is playing Illirio false and intends to use him with Littlefinger, the two are not allied.

#3 Tony Soprano

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:13 AM

Littlefinger isn't working with Varys. We don't know what his final goals are, but I think it's pretty obvious that he's in this for himself. Varys, on the other hand, has been plotting to return House Targaryen ( or Blackfyre, depending on Aegon's lineage ) to power since the start. He believes what he's doing is for the good of the Realm, but everything he has done caused only chaos and suffering. Littlefinger's done the same, I suppose, but at least he's not making excuses that he's doing it for the greater good.

#4 hardhome

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:30 AM

I would agree they are not in cahoots.

Littlefinger isn't working with Varys. We don't know what his final goals are, but I think it's pretty obvious that he's in this for himself. Varys, on the other hand, has been plotting to return House Targaryen ( or Blackfyre, depending on Aegon's lineage ) to power since the start. He believes what he's doing is for the good of the Realm, but everything he has done caused only chaos and suffering. Littlefinger's done the same, I suppose, but at least he's not making excuses that he's doing it for the greater good.

Interesting I would never imagine someone comparing the two and finding LF the nobler.

#5 Tony Soprano

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:35 AM

I would agree they are not in cahoots. Interesting I would never imagine someone comparing the two and finding LF the nobler.


I didn't say Littlefinger was noble. Far from it, he's a backstabbing, treacherous snake. But he doesn't try to hide the horror and chaos he's done behind a false noble cause. He claims that all the people he killed ( be it directly or indirectly ) died for a good cause, died for the Realm. But in all honesty, he's done nothing but continue the war with his actions.

#6 Ramsay Blow

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:39 AM

It's crossed my mind before. Although, ultimately, I don't find it probale. I always wondered why Varys would let LF play his own game when LF clearly can cause a lot of mayhem that messes up Varys's plans.

Edited by Ramsay Blow, 06 August 2013 - 06:40 AM.


#7 Big Finger

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:52 AM

I don't think they are working together, but why they don't team up beats. LF could be hand, Aegon/Dany king/queen with Varys and Illyrio in profitable positions as well. They'd be unstoppable

#8 Danielsnag

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:18 AM

No way. Littlefinger and Varys have opposing plans at the most basic level.

Littlefinger is just a beast fuelled by unbridled ambition. He is willing to crush anything and anyone to get what he wants. He doesn't care what impact his actions have on the realm. The more it is thrown into dissaray and chaos the better.

Varys claims to be doing what he's doing for the betterment and upkeep of the realm. Though to be fair, he does this in a strange way, and his real motives could be hidden, though I doubt it.

#9 nat655

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:18 AM

Varys in private conversation with Illirio. Unless your theory is that Varys is playing Illirio false and intends to use him with Littlefinger, the two are not allied.


Hmm, fair point - although never rule out Varys playing anyone false. I just think the position LF is currently in given his monopoly over Sansa (the oldest Stark) puts him in a strong negotiating position and if he is going to be in cahoots with anyone (which SURELY he is) I would've thought Varys has to be right up there

#10 Groat

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:33 AM

Hmm, fair point - although never rule out Varys playing anyone false. I just think the position LF is currently in given his monopoly over Sansa (the oldest Stark) puts him in a strong negotiating position and if he is going to be in cahoots with anyone (which SURELY he is) I would've thought Varys has to be right up there


I have actually always believed Varys has a shred of honor. Varys made a deal with Ned Stark, if Ned confessed his crimes, Varys would leave Sansa out of his schemes. Ned held up his end of the bargain, and so did Varys. That is why Sansa is free to be used by LF, Varys simply left her out of his schemes.

#11 Little and Less

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:46 AM

Littlefinger is out for Littlefinger - period. I think he has a HUGE chip on his shoulder for never being taken seriously as a threat by the noble class in Westeros. He thrives and causes chaos to prove he is the smartest and most manipulative man in the room (or all of Westeros).

Consider this: Varys or Littlefinger have the means and influence and could easily take each other out via hired assasin or well placed gossip to the wrong hotheaded character. So why don't they?

Because they need each other. Varys keeps LF around because he needs people to be distracted by the chaos LF sows. Although LF's chaos is sometimes mistimed, Varys needs/wants this continual diversion so he can work under the radar.

LF is so blinded by his own smugness that although he respects Varys, LF still considers himself smarter than Varys. He respects Varys as an able player in the GOT; for LF it's never fun to play by yourself, he needs Varys to set up some roadblocks every once in a while so that he can show how smart is.

Sometimes I think Varys and LF are each others audience; they really can't put their cons/disceptions out for all the public to see because then their schemes would never work. But they can secretly admire each other's work.

I think that the theory that Varys is a Blackfyre quite plausible because it explains why he wants to do things for "the children" or "the Realm". My guess is he wants to put his family, Aegon (who is a Blackfyre) back in their rightful place, on the IT, which was taken from them by the Targs. Dany and Viserys was always a smokescreen. It also explains why he wants to keep the Realm intact; nobody wants to inherit a kingdom in ruins.

I've always wondered how Jon Snow's lineage will come to play in Varys' plan - it may be the one thing that could derail Varys plan - but that's another forum topic.

Edited by Little and Less, 06 August 2013 - 09:59 AM.


#12 Aderyn the Sly

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:47 AM

Littlefinger... the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing.


Varys in private conversation with Illirio. Unless your theory is that Varys is playing Illirio false and intends to use him with Littlefinger, the two are not allied.


I agree with the above. That being said, although I don't think that they are allies, I don't think they're opponents either. I don't remember a single time when their plans directly conflicted with each other, other than LF saying that things were going to fast. I believe they will leave each other to their own devices until one gets in the way of the other. If LF 'bends the knee' to either Aegon or Dany depending on which Varys actually wants in power, I see no conflict. I have no clue what LF wants for his end game, but Varys I sort of equate with Slughorn from Harry Potter - he doesn't want power for himself, he wants to put people in power that would take care of him in a sense.

#13 Morienthar

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:50 AM

I don't think their plans have ever conflicted,So they aren't exactly opponents,But they aren't best buddies either.

#14 Master Forel's Fro

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:50 AM

I think LF is the adversary varys didn't anticipate, varys was around longer trying to move things in the direction of whatever it is he wants and LF turns up ruining his plans for his own ends. And in this case LF isn't a person he can just get rid of they are evenly matched that if he tries to take him down he'll have to doom himself as we'll.

#15 Lord Varys

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:05 AM

Varys was pissed about Littlefinger back in AGoT, but in the end all of Littlefinger's meddling ended up helping Varys' agenda. The War of the Five Kings may have start to early - and Varys' attempt to stall it's outbreak could show that he actually does want to keep the body count as low as possible - but it did make Aegon's/Dany's return much easier than he could have hoped for. The only people whose deaths Varys personally prepared are Tywin's and Pycelle's/Kevan's, and I frankly don't mourn for Tywin.

Pycelle was an old done man who had more than a few corpses in his closet, and Kevan took part in everything Tywin ever did. And Kevan never would have given the Realm a lasting peace. Not with Cersei's children on the Iron Throne. Stannis and Euron are still out there, and Aegon or no, Daenerys is coming.

#16 Crowford

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:16 AM

Whenever discussing topics like this, keep one thing in mind: We know almost nothing about what Littlefinger wants. Varys at least told a dying Kevan, so presumably that was the truth. Littlefinger? The only thing he clearly desired was Catelyn and then Sansa. But there has to be more, since if his only goal was taking Sansa as his lover, he could have already achieved that, since she is basically under his control with nowhere to run. Trying to claim the North in her name would make it harder for him.

So, he clearly wants something, and he have no shred of evidence as to what that his. Become King? Someone else becoming King or Queen? Or does he just want to prove a point, namely that blood and lineage and tradition are a meaningless charade, and that power should be held by those who are actually good at holding power, meaning himself?

Because if it's the last one, his view is not actually that different from Varys', but since they use very different methods of achieving this and have vastly different goals, they are bound to be in conflict with each other. Varys thinks that if the king is groomed from birth to see ruling not as a privilege but as a responsibility, he will be a good ruler and pass this on to his children. Littlefinger just wants to prove he is right, which might also translate to being a efficient ruler who takes nothing for granted, but probably does not care what happens after he dies. Although, it remains to be seen what his plans for Sansa are. She might only be a pawn in his plan, but he might also intend to shape her into a ruler like himself. Which would mean that he does care about "the next generation".

#17 Little and Less

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:37 AM

Yes we don't know what LF truly wants BUT did he want Catelyn or her status as a Tully (and possible heir should Edmure pass)? I always wondered if challenging Brandon Stark for Catelyn's hand was more about moving up the ladder than about love (although maybe at the time both seemed accessible.)

Catelyn's status became even more important when she married Ned Stark. Again getting Ned Stark out of the way - status/control vs. true love? (Although Robb was heir to WF, Catelyn still had a lot of influence.)

Remember Sansa just not some common red headed Northern girl - she is a Stark heir (and happens to look like Catelyn as well). The possiblity of controlling the North is possible as well as Riverrun.

I may be wrong but LF doing anything for love is hard to believe - blurred line indeed.

Edited by Little and Less, 06 August 2013 - 10:39 AM.


#18 Lord Varys

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 11:21 AM

We cannot see the man Littlefinger became independently of the lost duel with Brandon. That much is sure. As to what he wants right now, ADwD gave us a hint that he actually wants to marry Sansa.

He offered Cersei to marry the young Sansa after Ned got arrested. When Cersei declined, Littlefinger most likely caused Ned's execution to force Cersei and the Lannisters to be dependent on him in the coming struggles.

He does not merely want to rape/seduce/have Sansa, he wants to own her all his life. He wants her to love him, and then marry her. Most likely he imagines the whole Harry plan as a sort of lesson for Sansa how men are, to convince her how much different he is, so that she'll finally see what great a guy he truly is.

#19 Nikki Florence

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:15 PM

A couple of things: I have always considered the "game of thrones" to be a game played between varys and LF and everyone else was just a piece. LF talked about the players and pieces in his villain's exposition to sansa. Varys and LF are definitely playing a long game but some of the pieces can't really be controlled(the fantastical elements like the white walkers and dragons).

For that reason it is unclear if Euron and Dany are just powerful pieces, or if they can become players. I somehow doubt Varys tipped his entire hand, you never know who is listening, and I somehow doubt LF told sansa everything.

Littlefinger wanted to keep the Vale neutral so it would have a fresh army for the endgame. Varys hired the gold company, the best mercenary army that gold could buy.

Stannis is backed by the bank of bravos and the northerners(potentially including the wildlings and jon snow).

Euron has the most powerful navy in the world, and potentially can gain control of dragons with the dragon horn.

Right now, my main questions are

Winter is here so when will the white walkers collapse the wall and invade the realm and turn it upside down?(and how will this effect the political games that Varys and LF are playing?)

Will the dragon horns actually work and let dany/euron/someone else bind the dragons and actually control them in a fight? That would certainly make the dragons more useful, or will bran have to warg the dragons

Will we see LF try to overthrow the government completely in the middle of the chaos provided by these wild cards and usher in some sort of merit based system where he could climb to the top?

What players are left in the game of thrones? LF, Varys?(Tywin is dead, as are robert and renly baratheon and Robb stark) I guess Stannis, Euron and Dany, and maybe Jon Snow?

What will undead cat do with jaime lannister?

How is GRRM going to tie up all of these loose ends in just 2 books? I guess he can have dany and the dragons starting to sail and fly back from meereen at the end of book 6 and at the beginning of book 7 they will be back?