Stannis's Decision to have Renly killed (long post).

[Lazy Lion]

True, and Renly lost. He played the game, and the game kicked his butt.

No, Renly played the game, and then the plot demanded that he must die. It's like playing Monopoly with someone who suddenly decides to give themselves a "Government Bailout."

That's what I mean by deus ex machina: if Renly had been assassinated by a Faceless Man instead of a Shadow Baby, I wouldn't be annoyed with it. Shadow Babies aren't part of the game; they're a special rule that Martin gave Stannis because there wasn't a legitimate way for him to stay in the game.

Stannis also can't seem to forget the peach Renly offered him, even though it was clearly a jape.

That makes it worse, because Stannis is a humorless Refuser of Peaches!

[Draco_Dracul]

Yes and with that attitude you have a civil war every time a king dies. Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions will die and Westeros would be destroyed.

Not every time, not even most times, just when there is a pretender with strong backing, and a king that is weak or despised, you know how it already has been.

[Jasta11]

Renly was going to have Stannis killed too. He ordered his bannermen not to manhandle his body too much. No one has the moral high ground here. Except that Stannis was in right to have him killed, as Renly was objectively a traitor who overstepped his bounds.

As for using magic, please people, give me a break. Robb used his magic wolf to win battles. Arya uses magic faces to assassinate people. Bran uses a ton of magic, from dreams to possessing helpless Hodor. Dany uses magic to birth her medieval WMDs. That doesn't make it ''dark'' magic nor does it make them evil. What is this, Star Wars?

[David Selig]

As far as I am concerned, Stannis murdering Renly is a despicable and unforgivable act. He chose to murder his brother to further his own selfish ambitions instead of stepping aside, help end the war more quickly and enjoy the life of a high lord. He had no proof of his twincest claims, as he told Davos himself earlier.

The traitor stuff used to defend Stannis here is quite silly IMO. Stannis was a traitor himself.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

No, Renly played the game, and then the plot demanded that he must die. It's like playing Monopoly with someone who suddenly decides to give themselves a "Government Bailout."

There were consequences to using the "shadow baby", so I don't view it that way.

That's what I mean by deus ex machina: if Renly had been assassinated by a Faceless Man instead of a Shadow Baby, I wouldn't be annoyed with it. Shadow Babies aren't part of the game; they're a special rule that Martin gave Stannis because there wasn't a legitimate way for him to stay in the game.

"Shadow babies" are a part of the game, because magic is a part of the game. "Shadow babies" are exhaustible, since Stannis could die if he made another one, so they don't bother me. I don't see the difference between Renly being assassinated by a Faceless Man vs. a "shadow baby". The end result was the same. To be fair, that's probably because the magic in the series doesn't bother me.

[Lazy Lion]

"Shadow babies" are a part of the game, because magic is a part of the game. "Shadow babies" are exhaustible, since Stannis could die if he made another one, so they don't bother me. I don't see the difference between Renly being assassinated by a Faceless Man vs. a "shadow baby". The end result was the same. To be fair, that's probably because the magic in the series doesn't bother me.

What prevents Renly from hiring a Faceless Man to kill Stannis first? Money. Priorities. Pride, probably.

What prevents Renly from summoning a Shadow Baby to kill Stannis first? Oh yeah, Melisandre is the only character who can make Shadow Babies.

Expand that out: Robert's council discussed hiring a Faceless Man to kill Dany. It was dismissed (by LF) as too expensive.

The Lannisters could have hired Faceless Men to murder Rob, Stannis, Renly, Balon, etc. They didn't...mostly because FM are so expensive.

Make sense yet? Faceless Men are part of the game. Shadow Babies are not part of the game, because they are not universally known or universally accessible. Shadow Babies come out of left field, leaving the rest of the players thinking "WTF just happened??"

Shadow Babies aren't part of the game. Shadow Babies fundamentally alter the game. Shadow Babies are like having dragons...in a world where dragons never existed until right now, precisely when it is most convenient for Stannis.

I also contend that the alleged "consequences" to using them are questionable at best: Stannis kills two people at Storm's End, but doesn't start showing any signs of those "consequences" for weeks afterward...coincidentally right after he suffers a humiliating defeat on the Blackwater.

Thoros resurrecting Dondarrion ad nauseum was unnecessary, but harmless. It had no real impact on the overarching story of the war itself. Stannis' entire story arc hinges on his ability to assassinate Renly with a Shadow Baby.

[King Robert's Warhammer]

One side has a WMD. The other doesn't have a WMD. The side with the WMD will use that WMD in a military action when appropriate.

If Renly could've had Shadow Babies by boning Loras he would have.

[Jasta11]

What prevents Renly from hiring a Faceless Man to kill Stannis first? Money. Priorities. Pride, probably.

What prevents Renly from summoning a Shadow Baby to kill Stannis first? Oh yeah, Melisandre is the only character who can make Shadow Babies.

Expand that out: Robert's council discussed hiring a Faceless Man to kill Dany. It was dismissed (by LF) as too expensive.

The Lannisters could have hired Faceless Men to murder Rob, Stannis, Renly, Balon, etc. They didn't...mostly because FM are so expensive.

Make sense yet? Faceless Men are part of the game. Shadow Babies are not part of the game, because they are not universally known or universally accessible. Shadow Babies come out of left field, leaving the rest of the players thinking "WTF just happened??"

Shadow Babies aren't part of the game. Shadow Babies fundamentally alter the game. Shadow Babies are like having dragons...in a world where dragons never existed until right now, precisely when it is most convenient for Stannis.

I also contend that the alleged "consequences" to using them are questionable at best: Stannis kills two people at Storm's End, but doesn't start showing any signs of those "consequences" for weeks afterward...coincidentally right after he suffers a humiliating defeat on the Blackwater.

Thoros resurrecting Dondarrion ad nauseum was unnecessary, but harmless. It had no real impact on the overarching story of the war itself. Stannis' entire story arc hinges on his ability to assassinate Renly with a Shadow Baby.

Dany's entire story arc hinge on her magic blood giving her dragons. To say nothing of all her other plot gifts.

Bran's entire story arc hinges on his wolf blood giving him dreams and possession.

Robb wins a crucial battle thanks to his magic wolf.

Jon wouldn't have gone anywhere without magic wolf Ghost to help him out several times, especially when he saved Mormont's life.

Arya's story arc hinges on being a ten years old superninja joining an organisation of assassins that heavily uses magic and mystic concoctions.

But when Stannis uses the tools at his disposal, it's out of line? Please.

[E-Ro]

”Rise ser Davos,” Stannis commanded. “I have missed you ser. I have need of good counsel, and you never gave me less. So tell me true—what is the penalty for treason?” “Treason?” He finally managed, weakly. “What else would you call it, to deny your king and seek to steal his rightful throne. I ask you again—what is the penalty for treason under the law?” Davos had no choice but to answer. “Death,” he said. “The penalty is death, your grace.” “It has always been so. I am not… I am not a cruel man, ser Davos. You know me. Have known me long, this is not my decree. It has always been so, since Aegons day and before. Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the vulture king, grand master Hareth… Traitors have always paid with their lives… even Rhaneyra Targeryan She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitors death for trying to usurp her brothers crown. It is law, Davos. Not cruelty.”

Renly and stannis were enemies at war. Both offered the other generous terms(stannis terms given to renly were better, imo, being made heir so he would have been king anyway one day) but both said no. Renlys claim to the throne is based on might, not inheritance. Well, stannis is the one to have walked away from that encounter, so he had more might, and the stronger claim both by force and by blood rights. I dont care that renly was his brother, renly was a traitor and died a traitors death.

[TheMysteriousOne]

But when Stannis uses the tools at his disposal, it's out of line? Please.

There's a huge difference between the shadowbabies and the other forms of magic listed here.

Anyway, I've never faulted Stannis for killing Renly, they were at war and Renly was a traitor (some might argue the same of Stannis), but the use of the shadowbaby is what has always bothered me.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

What prevents Renly from hiring a Faceless Man to kill Stannis first? Money. Priorities. Pride, probably.

What prevents Renly from summoning a Shadow Baby to kill Stannis first? Oh yeah, Melisandre is the only character who can make Shadow Babies.

Expand that out: Robert's council discussed hiring a Faceless Man to kill Dany. It was dismissed (by LF) as too expensive.

The Lannisters could have hired Faceless Men to murder Rob, Stannis, Renly, Balon, etc. They didn't...mostly because FM are so expensive.

Make sense yet?

Actually, your point about the Faceless Men made sense from the beginning, so there is no need to be rude. My point is that I disagree that it really makes a difference, since both are apart of the game.

Faceless Men are part of the game. Shadow Babies are not part of the game, because they are not universally known or universally accessible. Shadow Babies come out of left field, leaving the rest of the players thinking "WTF just happened??"

Shadow Babies aren't part of the game. Shadow Babies fundamentally alter the game. Shadow Babies are like having dragons...in a world where dragons never existed until right now, precisely when it is most convenient for Stannis.

Magic exist in ASOIAF, so GRRM did not conjure the idea of a "shadow baby" from no where. "Shadow babies" exist in a world where you have dragons, people rising from the dead, wargs, ice monsters, and a magical ice wall. Stannis was lucky enough to use magic, the same way Renly was lucky enough to gain a large army through marriage to his lover's sister. No one plays the game fairly, and no one should be punished for a little luck. Renly would have gladly used a "shadow baby" if he had the opportunity.

I also contend that the alleged "consequences" to using them are questionable at best: Stannis kills two people at Storm's End, but doesn't start showing any signs of those "consequences" for weeks afterward...coincidentally right after he suffers a humiliating defeat on the Blackwater.

Mel herself states that Stannis is deteriorating due to the "shadow babies". He paid a price for them.

Thoros resurrecting Dondarrion ad nauseum was unnecessary, but harmless. It had no real impact on the overarching story of the war itself. Stannis' entire story arc hinges on his ability to assassinate Renly with a Shadow Baby.

Magic is a part of ASOIAF, so magic will alter the story at certain points. If Stannis was sitting the Iron Throne as a direct result of Renly's assassination I might see things differently.

[Jasta11]

There's a huge difference between the shadowbabies and the other forms of magic listed here.

Anyway, I've never faulted Stannis for killing Renly, they were at war and Renly was a traitor (some might argue the same of Stannis), but the use of the shadowbaby is what has always bothered me.

What difference? Dany trades a life to birth medieval WMDs in a blood magic ritual; Stannis trades his sperm to kill a guy. The Faceless Man's magic is implied (at least to me) to work based on the corpses of the dead. Stark magic comes from their blood and is as ''story-breaking'' as Melissandre being the only one who can birth shadowbabies. I see absolutely no difference. Again, this isin't Star Wars or Harry Potter. There is no such thing as black magic in ASoIaF. It's just magic, and how its used depends on the person.

[E-Ro]

Wait, are people complaining about the use of shadowbabies in particular? lol, why are the shadowbabies different then any other weapon used in war? No one complains about the unfair advantage of dragons which do FAR more damage and kill in a far harsher manner then the shadowbaby. Heavy cavalry, steel weapons, armor, etc. All these things are designed to give one an advantage over your enemies, and believe me when your in a life or death situation you defend yourself with everything you have. the shadowbabies take out one person and avoid battle, think of them like drones.

As for "dark magic" this isnt harry potter. There is nothing inherently evil about the shadowbabies, as with any other weapon its how you use it.

[TheMysteriousOne]

What difference? Dany trades a life to birth medieval WMDs in a blood magic ritual; Stannis trades his sperm to kill a guy. The Faceless Man's magic is implied (at least to me) to work based on the corpses of the dead. Stark magic comes from their blood and is as ''story-breaking'' as Melissandre being the only one who can birth shadowbabies. I see absolutely no difference. Again, this isin't Star Wars or Harry Potter. There is no such thing as black magic in ASoIaF. It's just magic, and how its used depends on the person.

The difference isn't a matter of black magic vs. light/good magic; the difference is that the way the shadowbabies are used by Melisandre and Stannis and the way that Dany will/might use dragons to conquer Westeros, and the way Robb used Grey Wind, etc. is different in the way that at least with those forms of magic, everyone knows that they have a chance of dying from them and they are aware of the threat, and can choose to respond to the threat, accordingly. They are also aware that they have a chance of defeating this threat.

However, it's different with the shadowbaby. The shadowbaby attacks swiftly and without warning. How do you defeat a shadow? Renly had absolutely no idea that he would be murdered by some form of magic on the night before his victory over Stannis, and therein lies the difference.

[Lazy Lion]

Dany's entire story arc hinge on her magic blood giving her dragons. To say nothing of all her other plot gifts.

Dany's story arc essentially exist in a vacuum. Characters move from Westeros to her storyline, but never go back. The dragons are essential to Dany's story arc, but they didn't just fall out of the sky. Dany is the Mother of Dragons: that is her point and claim to fame in the story. Dany's dragons are a supernatural wonder to everybody she encounters.

When was the last time Stannis was referred to as the "Father of Shadow Babies"? Stannis is a commander, and his forces have played a pivotal role in the Wo5K. Stannis' actions have had a profound impact on every other story arc. Dany can't say that.

Bran's actions (especially as a warg and greenseer) have had little impact on other story arcs. Again, the greater the impact, the worse the deus ex machina.

Grey Wind finding the secret pass was a bit of an abuse, I grant you. But the direwolf didn't singlehandedly win any of Robb's important battles for him--and his effect is much more psychological than direct. Greatjon Umber has almost as much impact on the story as Grey Wind.

Ghost, much like Grey Wind, is more of a mascot than a powerful force. He finds the wight's hand, and he alerts Jon when Othor attacks Mormont. He even fights with the wight, but Ghost isn't an insta-kill wight-slaying machine. The biggest abuse with Ghost is Jon's warg-dream about the wildling camp...which in the end meant nothing, as that warning was never delivered to Mormont, and Jon saw the camps firsthand before he was able to reach the Wall.

Arya's story arc hinges on her bouncing around the Riverlands disguised as a peasant. The FM connection is the latest swing, not the entire arc. And yet again, which other characters has that impacted, and how? She offered Sam advice and killed Dareon. That's it so far.

Everything Stannis has done became possible when he killed Renly. That's what makes it a deus ex machina. It was a complete gamechanger. Tyrion's story arc was fundamentally altered because of it. So were Catelyn's, Cersei's, Jaime's, Sansa's, and Jon's. Stannis killing Renly didn't just impact Davos' POV chapters. It changed everyone's.

If and when Ghost beseiges KL, or Bran wargs into someone and murders Tommen, I'll complain that their "magic" was also a deus ex machina.

Dany's dragons aren't a deus ex machina because they've been cultivated by the author since the end of the first book. A deus ex machina must be sudden and unexpected.

Actually, your point about the Faceless Men made sense from the beginning, so there is no need to be rude.

Didn't actually mean to be rude, just wasn't sure if I was explaining the distinction effectively. Sorry it came across that way. :frown5:

Magic exist in ASOIAF, so GRRM did not conjure the idea of a "shadow baby" from no where. "Shadow babies" exist in a world where you have dragons, people rising from the dead, wargs, ice monsters, and a magical ice wall.

See above about how much impact it has on the plotline, and how deus ex machina must be sudden and/or unexpected. People know about dragons and the ice wall, and no one character will get a huge benefit from the wights/Others.

Mel herself states that Stannis is deteriorating due to the "shadow babies". He paid a price for them.

Mel says a great number of things that are less than true. Nobody noticed any deterioration until after the Blackwater. The march up from Storm's End should have been difficult for him, but doesn't seem to have been so.

How do you defeat a shadow?

This is the major issue. Shadow Babies are automatic insta-kill weapons that nobody else has access to. Yes, it makes perfect sense for Stannis to use them if he has access, but it also makes sense for Robb Stark to wear his plot armor to the Red Wedding. The Shadow Babies are offensive plot armor.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

There's a huge difference between the shadowbabies and the other forms of magic listed here.

I disagree.

Without the dragons, it would have been nearly impossible for Dany to still be alive. Magic is central to her storyline, and her entire story arc after the death of Khal Drogo hinges on her newly acquired dragons "magic made flesh".

Personally, I don't have a problem with her and the dragons. I was happy/shocked when I read about the dragons, and was mortified/shocked when I read about the "shadow baby". At neither point was I appalled by GRRM's use of magic to further a character's storyline. In my view, both cases were simply the reality of living in the world of ASOIAF.

Anyway, I've never faulted Stannis for killing Renly, they were at war and Renly was a traitor (some might argue the same of Stannis), but the use of the shadowbaby is what has always bothered me.

Initially, it bothered me because I immediately identified the "shadow baby" with dark magic and evil. Once I took a step back to really take it in, I saw it as just another weapon of war.

[TheMysteriousOne]

I disagree.

This is what I said to the other poster:

The difference isn't a matter of black magic vs. light/good magic; the difference is that the way the shadowbabies are used by Melisandre and Stannis and the way that Dany will/might use dragons to conquer Westeros, and the way Robb used Grey Wind, etc. is different in the way that at least with those forms of magic, everyone knows that they have a chance of dying from them and they are aware of the threat, and can choose to respond to the threat, accordingly. They are also aware that they have a chance of defeating this threat.

However, it's different with the shadowbaby. The shadowbaby attacks swiftly and without warning. How do you defeat a shadow? Renly had absolutely no idea that he would be murdered by some form of magic on the night before his victory over Stannis, and therein lies the difference.

[Penguin king]

I think Mel is probably the biggest plot gift in ASOIAF. She comes out of nowhere and grants stannis access to powers that none of the other kings in Westeros could ever dream of. Stannis really doesn't have to lift a finger to secure her services. In no way is her power earned or paid for.

Danny paid a price for her dragons. Bran paid for his greensight, and arya has sacrificed nearly everything on her road to becoming a facless man. Pretty much every use of magic in the series has some sort of cost assocciated. Sooner or later Stannis will have to pay his price, or his story won't work on a thematic level.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Didn't actually mean to be rude, just wasn't sure if I was explaining the distinction effectively. Sorry it came across that way. :frown5:

You were explaining it effectively, very much so. :)

See above about how much impact it has on the plotline, and how deus ex machina must be sudden and/or unexpected. People know about dragons and the ice wall, and no one character will get a huge benefit from the wights/Others.

Those dragons still provided Dany with a way out of her situation, whether people know about them or not. The same way the "shadow baby" provided Stannis with a way out of his situation.

Plus, no one ever knows when a Faceless Man is coming for them.

Mel says a great number of things that are less than true.

Mel's falsehoods are always open to interpretation. Stannis' deteriorating state of health, and inability to make another "shadow baby" is not open to interpretation. If he still had it in him, Mel would have sucked it out by now.

Nobody noticed any deterioration until after the Blackwater. The march up from Storm's End should have been difficult for him, but doesn't seem to have been so.

Stannis deterioration doesn't mean that he is at death's door right after making the "shadow baby".

This is what I said to the other poster:

The difference isn't a matter of black magic vs. light/good magic; the difference is that the way the shadowbabies are used by Melisandre and Stannis and the way that Dany will/might use dragons to conquer Westeros, and the way Robb used Grey Wind, etc. is different in the way that at least with those forms of magic, everyone knows that they have a chance of dying from them and they are aware of the threat, and can choose to respond to the threat, accordingly. They are also aware that they have a chance of defeating this threat.

I see your point.

Personally, I feel the balance comes in Stannis' inability to produce as many "shadow babies" as he desires.

However, it's different with the shadowbaby. The shadowbaby attacks swiftly and without warning. How do you defeat a shadow? Renly had absolutely no idea that he would be murdered by some form of magic on the night before his victory over Stannis, and therein lies the difference.

Renly was warned, but to be fair...the warning was rather cryptic. ^_^

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I think Mel is probably the biggest plot gift in ASOIAF. She comes out of nowhere and grants stannis access to powers that none of the other kings in Westeros could ever dream of. Stannis really doesn't have to lift a finger to secure her services. In no way is her power earned or paid for.

Danny paid a price for her dragons. Bran paid for his greensight, and arya has sacrificed nearly everything on her road to becoming a facless man. Pretty much every use of magic in the series has some sort of cost assocciated. Sooner or later Stannis will have to pay his price, or his story won't work on a thematic level.

Stannis has paid a price for Mel's "powers".

His health is deteriorating, he played a part in the death of his own brother, contemplated killing his own nephew, constantly struggles internally, believes he will have to lead the fight against the Others to save Westeros, and probably knows that he will die in the end. Stannis' story has not been peaches and creme since the "red woman" arrived in his life.

Stannis' story works on a thematic level because it is more of an exploration into the dangers of religion more than anything else, and Stannis has suffered immensely due his struggle with his new found religion.