ConCarolinas May 30 - June 1 2014: Charlotte NC GRRM Guest of honor

[becca69]

Ditto on where dc17 party is.

[becca69]

Edit: didn't see previous post!

[ashayatara]

Reading was amazing, read History of the Westerlands up until extinction of Reynes. Going to the party now, but Aziz and I got 7 pages of notes, will release an episode on the info (there was a TON).

[andyjim]

Reading was amazing, read History of the Westerlands up until extinction of Reynes. Going to the party now, but Aziz and I got 7 pages of notes, will release an episode on the info (there was a TON).

The reading was indeed awesome What I also found interesting is his perceived publishing timeline. In prefacing the reading, he mentioned that he wrote so much for World of Ice and Fire that they decided to cut out some of the Targ history for a later book that will be published in 4-5 years - after Winds and Dream. As we all know, George's estimates aren't always right and this may be a case where he said something he had not given much though to before speaking Still, I thought it was worth mentioning.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

Oh my god, we heard what REALLY happened to the Reynes of Castamere. One of the most intense moments in all of ASOIAF, I think. Made me want to cry right there. Holy shit, Tywin.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Reading this thread make me super curious. Please post notes here as soon as possible, your reactions show that it was a really good piece GRRM read :)

Did GRRM perchance mention the name of Tyros' wife? Or explain how Tytos is related to Tybolt Lannister (son? Grandson?)?

[ashayatara]

Tytos' wife was Jeyne Marbrand (interesting story there...interesting story, period, though, heh).

Tytos was the nephew of Tybolt.

Would love to write more, but it is 3 am and the Q&A is at 10:30 am, so I need to sleep. Got a ton of notes, though, as I said, so I'll have a full report by Tuesday at the very latest.

[Maia]

Tytos' wife was Jeyne Marbrand (interesting story there...interesting story, period, though, heh).

So, Ser Addam is some kind of cousin, right? Most interesting, though surprisingly tame. Given that Tytos was a third son, unlikely to inherit, I sort of expected a more adventurous match for him.

Tytos was the nephew of Tybolt.

Hm, so does it mean that the line continued through Rohanne Webber's correspondent Ser Gerold? Maybe he wasn't just unwilling to leave the comforts of Lannisport and the Rock, but his presence and availability could have been important for House Lannister.

Would love to write more, but it is 3 am and the Q&A is at 10:30 am, so I need to sleep. Got a ton of notes, though, as I said, so I'll have a full report by Tuesday at the very latest.

Ack! Couldn't somebody post a very condensed gist of it? Pretty please? Not that I am ungrateful concerning the upcoming detailed report(s), of course...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Tytos' wife was Jeyne Marbrand (interesting story there...interesting story, period, though, heh).

Tytos was the nephew of Tybolt.

Would love to write more, but it is 3 am and the Q&A is at 10:30 am, so I need to sleep. Got a ton of notes, though, as I said, so I'll have a full report by Tuesday at the very latest.

Thank you! Does that make Gerold Lannister Tytos' father, or was there a third brother?

I'll be looking forward to your notes (and those of anyone else)! :)

Goodnight!

[Lord Varys]

Well, guys, I've always said you that Tytos was not of the same generation as Tybolt...

Considering that there are literally tons of Lannister cousins during Tywin's time - Joanna/Stafford, Stafford's children, Damion, Lady Margot - it's pretty obvious that both Tybolt/Gerold and Tytos had younger siblings.

I'd imagine Tybolt/Gerold's generation and the generation of their children was heavily involved in the coming wars throughout the reign of Aerys I and Maekar (i.e. Blackfyre Rebellions and the Dagon thing).

I really think I've to go to London and Dublin this year...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, guys, I've always said you that Tytos was not of the same generation as Tybolt...

Considering that there are literally tons of Lannister cousins during Tywin's time - Joanna/Stafford, Stafford's children, Damion, Lady Margot - it's pretty obvious that both Tybolt/Gerold and Tytos had younger siblings.

I'd imagine Tybolt/Gerold's generation and the generation of their children was heavily involved in the coming wars throughout the reign of Aerys I and Maekar (i.e. Blackfyre Rebellions and the Dagon thing).

I really think I've to go to London and Dublin this year...

Well, the big amount of Lannister cousins could come from other Lannisters as well.. if Tybolts uncle had children, who had children, who had children, you'd reach Lannister cousins of Tywins generation.

[Lord Varys]

That's right, but I still believe that at least Stafford and Joanna were Tywin's first cousins, meaning that they must be the children of Tytos' younger brother.

[Lady Baela Targaryen]

I'll just leave it here:

https://twitter.com/WesterosHistory/status/472909659330715649

https://twitter.com/WesterosHistory/status/472915768200691712

[Lord Varys]

Bloodraven presided over the Great Council after Maekar's death?!

That one really hits you in the face... I'd not be surprised if Bloodraven did everything he could to secure Egg's rise to the throne, considering how their relationship began in TMK.

And it really seems as if Tybolt, his sons, and Tytos' elder brothers may goners during the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion (I don't think the fourth rebellion would be covered in detail in the history of the Westerlands, if the Lannsiters were not heavily involved in it). I'd also not be surprised if some Lannisters chose to declare of a Blackfyre pretender...

That pretty much confirms my expectations that both Aerys I and Maekar at least faced one dangerous Blackfyre Rebellion orchestrated by Bittersteel.

But I'm pretty sure this was not the end of it, Egg, his sons, and grandchildren must have had their share as well, considering that the five generations of Targaryens were troubled by Blackfyres (i.e. Daeron II, Aerys/Rhaegel/Maekar, Daeron/Aerion/Aemon/Egg, Duncan/Jaehaerys/the Mystery Prince, and Aerys/Rhaella/the children of Duncan and the Mystery Prince).

[Calibandar]

Sounds like another great chapter from that book. Now I don't know if I want to read the notes or just hold out until October.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Bloodraven presided over the Great Council after Maekar's death?!

That one really hits you in the face... I'd not be surprised if Bloodraven did everything he could to secure Egg's rise to the throne, considering how their relationship began in TMK.

And it really seems as if Tybolt, his sons, and Tytos' elder brothers may goners during the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion (I don't think the fourth rebellion would be covered in detail in the history of the Westerlands, if the Lannsiters were not heavily involved in it). I'd also not be surprised if some Lannisters chose to declare of a Blackfyre pretender...

That pretty much confirms my expectations that both Aerys I and Maekar at least faced one dangerous Blackfyre Rebellion orchestrated by Bittersteel.

But I'm pretty sure this was not the end of it, Egg, his sons, and grandchildren must have had their share as well, considering that the five generations of Targaryens were troubled by Blackfyres (i.e. Daeron II, Aerys/Rhaegel/Maekar, Daeron/Aerion/Aemon/Egg, Duncan/Jaehaerys/the Mystery Prince, and Aerys/Rhaella/the children of Duncan and the Mystery Prince).

But would the five generation thing work like that? Because like you state, it would involve Aerys II's generation to have had trouble with the Blackfyres, but the last male Blackfyre died during Jaehaerys' reign, one generation up.

I had been thinking that perhaps what was meant was that 5 generations of Blackfyre's troubled the Targaryens, but I don't think we have enough info for that to figure it out?

Daeron II / Daemon I Blackfyre

Aerys I / Daemon II

Aerys I or Maekar I / ? 3rd Blackfyre Rebellion

Maekar / ? Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion

Jaehaerys II / Maelys, the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

I count only 4 generations of Targaryens (including Egg, who then must have lived in between of the Blackfyre Rebellions, or we faced a Rebellion or two we have yet to learn about).

Daemon I is the first generation Blackfyre

Daemon II is the second

the third Blackfyre Rebellion could have involved a child of Haegons, or of one of Daemon's other brothers (there were 3 more)

the fourth Blackfyre Rebellion could then have involved a great-grandchild of Daemon I

the War of the Ninepenny Kings being the 5th rebellion, that would make Maelys the great-greatgrandchild of Daemon I. With Daemon´s birth in 169/170AC, and with his first children born in 183/184AC, would it be possible to have 5 generations of Blackfyres by 261AC?

Daemon: 169/170AC

Daemon II:189AC

Haegon: 190AC the earliest

Haegon's child: no earlier than 204AC

Haegon's grandchild: no earlier than 218AC

Haegon's great-grandchild: no earlier than :232AC

With 14 years the minimum age the father has when his first child is born. Even with generation gaps a little bigger (like 17/18 years), Maelys would still be an adult in 261AC.

[Lord Varys]

My guess is that this does not necessarily refer to the Targaryen kings, but rather to the Targaryens involved in the fighting. Rhaegel/Aerys would not have fought Daemon or his sons, but they may have well been assassinated. And considering that Jaehaerys II was born in 223 AC, it's easily imaginable that Prince Duncan's sons were old enough to fight (and die) in a Blackfyre rebellion in the early/middle 250s or so.

It would be easily imaginable that the decision to hatch the dragon eggs at Summerhall was caused by the last Blackfyre Rebellion before the War of the Ninepenny Kings, which may have been backed by a wide coalition of Lords who wanted to get rid of 'smallfolk' King Aegon V. Egg would have felt that he needed dragons to keep his family on the Iron Throne, and go through with reforms/changes he wanted to make.

Prince Duncan could have been born in the late 210s, or around 220, and since he was the eldest son who most likely started this 'I want to marry for love, like my father' thing, I'd imagine that he was the first of Egg's sons to fall in love, leading to a rather early marriage, say, around 335 AC. In that case, his eldest child could have been around 20 in 255 AC, and 23/4 at Summerhall. That works just fine. Aerys II is merely one of Egg's grandson, most likely not the eldest.

As to the Blackfyre generations/pretenders:

Despite the fact that Daemon had seven sons, I expect that only a few of them will live to breed. And I'm also pretty sure that Bittersteel pretty much gets many/all of Daemon's sons killed during the rebellions he instigates.

My guess is that third Rebellion will be a major thing during Aerys' reign, somewhat resembling the situation of the Blacks after Rhaenyra's death. The rebellion would be fought in the name of Daemon II - a hostage at KL - but actually led by Bittersteel and Prince Haegon. I'd not be surprised if both Daemon II and Haegon died in that war, and if both did not leave any issues.

Then the fourth Rebellion, most likely fought during Maekar's reign, would involve one of Haegon's three younger brothers, and I guess they would have had children of their own by that time. I guess at least one of the Blackfyre sons was married to a sister, to keep the blood pure, but it's really hard to say if Maelys will turn out to be a grandson or a great-grandson of Daemon I. I'd not be surprised if the latter was the case, and if his parents were Blackfyre cousins, reuniting the lines of, say, Daemon's fifth and seventh son.

But there are sisters as well, and I really hope they - and their mother - also play an important role in all of that. It would be interesting if the eldest daughter of Daemon was one of his eldest children as well, say, the child between the twins and Daemon II, or between Daemon II and Haegon.

[Maia]

Wow, Bloodraven presiding over the Grand Council is epic! So, I guess that he went to the Wall of his own free will rather than as an alternative to continuing imprisonment and for reasons similar to Aemon's, with the additional motivation not to overshadow Aegon V's new reign with his own sinister reputation.

Everybody had such high hopes for Egg as a king... and somehow I feel that they probably were disappointed, at least in part. Also, Maekar couldn't have been very popular, if the man he condemned to the black cells was chosen to oversee his succession.

I also wonder what happened to Shiera - was she already dead? If so, it would have made the decision easier for Bloodraven.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Wow, Bloodraven presiding over the Grand Council is epic! So, I guess that he went to the Wall of his own free will rather than as an alternative to continuing imprisonment and for reasons similar to Aemon's, with the additional motivation not to overshadow Aegon V's new reign with his own sinister reputation.

Everybody had such high hopes for Egg as a king... and somehow I feel that they probably were disappointed, at least in part. Also, Maekar couldn't have been very popular, if the man he condemned to the black cells was chosen to oversee his succession.

I also wonder what happened to Shiera - was she already dead? If so, it would have made the decision easier for Bloodraven.

The app seems to suggest that there were plenty of people against Egg becoming King.

[King Tyrion I]

Oh my god, we heard what REALLY happened to the Reynes of Castamere. One of the most intense moments in all of ASOIAF, I think. Made me want to cry right there. Holy shit, Tywin.

I'd be grateful to read something more about that. You can also PM me if you like to.