Stannis will have best Army?!?

[Nyrhex]

Which doesn't make Stannis army anymore impressive even if they are his which I don't think they are.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't volunteer to ride out with Stannis like they did for Mance.

Fixed.

And Stannis is'nt banking on them. He is banking on the North and sellswords. The whole point with letting the Wildlings pass was to creat an alliance instead of making war with the Wildlings, in order to fight the Others.

[aceluby]

For all intents and porpuses the Wildlings are no longer a serius military force, if ever they were at all.

This is all that really matters. The wildlings should not be counted as part of Stannis' force. He might get 30k soldiers if the sellswords actually get to him, but that still won't be the largest army by a long shot

[DaarioKnowsBest]

So you think if Stannis and Jon were at odds the wildlings would side with Stannus?

[STANNIS THE GREAT KING]

Mammoths & Giants went well at the Battle of Castle Black. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Nyrhex]

So you think if Stannis and Jon were at odds the wildlings would side with Stannus?

I think they'd side with Mance.

[tyrion_skywalker]

If he gets his 20,000 sell swords, some northerns and a bunch of undisciplined wildlings he would probably be the 3rd largest force in westeros behind the Tyrells as the largest and the 35-40 K untapped Valemen as the second.

If Dany lands with dragons and potentially over 100 K she'll be a force.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

I think they'd side with Mance.

I'll take that as an admission that u know they don't give a sh about Stannis

If this is true that makes them Mances men , not Jon or Stannis

[Mad Monkey]

Errm, the Wildlings and the mammoths riding giants bent the knee to Stannis. They stayed back because Stannis allowed Jon to have them, if Jon tells him where to find more men. They are not "Jon's".

Jon Snow has their children as hostages and negotiated a treaty with their self-chosen leaders to settle them on the gift. Some of them have even agreed to join the Night's Watch and view him as their Lord Crow.

What is Stannis's hold on them at this point? Not much -- even he himself doesn't really think about the wildlings as being anything other than arrow fodder. He made them bend the knee (an empty gesture) and made them watch as his red wizard burned their king and their gods. In fact, this is probably why Stannis agreed to leave them behind; having disciplined soldiers who are already organized and already a part of the realm is better than having an army of wildlings who have made some empty gestures but have no skin in the game (Stannis doesn't really have any hostages after sacrificing Mance).

Anyway, Stannis doesn't need wildlings to have the best army. He himself is a brilliant battle commander and he has a strong group of dedicated soldiers (including his loyal king's men, his queen's men, and the mountain clans who are riding with him because he is the "king who cared" to rescue Arya).

Lol. He told him where to find places that are not on any map, how to treat with Northern clans (like anybody else from the south even knows of thier existance, let alone charachter) and tell him that he probably should'nt bring Mel along - But Stannis was'nt planning on doing it anyway. Not realy diplomacy 101.

Stannis had to be told to compliment the courage of their sons and the beauty of their daughters, and also why it was important that he not aggressively threaten their religion while he's asking them to lay down their lives for his cause. That's pretty basic stuff in my opinion -- if you want someone to help you, treat them with basic courtesy and don't insult their religion to their faces immediately upon meeting them. Throughout the rest of Westeros, religious liberty is fairly respected. The NW, for instance, lets people say their vows before any god of their choice, and it's common for people to swear "before old gods and the new".

[Petyr Patter]

That makes them even less "Jon's". And the "fighters" that are left include cripples and the wounded from the battle beneath the Wall. For all intents and porpuses the Wildlings are no longer a serius military force, if ever they were at all.

I think Jon said it best when he said the wildlings were nothing but arrow fodder for Stannis, but could be used very effectively at the Wall, where staying in formation is less important than acting qucik and knowing the land.

Still, give me 20,000 blooded veterans versus 100,000 enthusiastics knights of summer who don't know winter.

I don't think Stannis will ever have the biggest army at this point, nor even the best armored/more horse. Still, he might have the army most appropriate for winning, which means surviving longer than the other guy.

[355Lion]

I'll take that as an admission that u know they don't give a sh about Stannis

They dont have to care for Stannis. IF jon, or mance, or even stannis convinces them that if any other king sits the iron throne they will be seen as outcast and slaughtered or something, I'm sure they would be willing to fight for their right for freednom. No, Im not not putting to much faith in the Wildlings, but Giants and Mammoths have to account for something. I mean Aegon has a couple elephants and thats a big deal, but hundreds of mammoths AND giants!?

[Groat]

Errm, the Wildlings and the mammoths riding giants bent the knee to Stannis. They stayed back because Stannis allowed Jon to have them, if Jon tells him where to find more men. They are not "Jon's".

Jon made it clear to Stannis, he expects the WIldlings that stayed to answer to him. Jon doesn't insist they take the black, but he does insist they see Jon as the authority. Jon also has the hostages, plus his time spent with the Wildling army, his guarding of Mance's wife and Val during the battle, it all adds up to the Wildlings being loyal to Jon over Stannis.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

The way people brag about Stannis singlehandedly smashing the wildlings you would think they were the greatest fighting force on planetos

[Nyrhex]

Jon made it clear to Stannis, he expects the WIldlings that stayed to answer to him. Jon doesn't insist they take the black, but he does insist they see Jon as the authority. Jon also has the hostages, plus his time spent with the Wildling army, his guarding of Mance's wife and Val during the battle, it all adds up to the Wildlings being loyal to Jon over Stannis.

If Stannis is the one that gives them the order to obey Jon, how is it not clear that his authority is above Jon's?

It still does'nt matter. the wildlings wanted to march south for Mance, not for Jon or for (f)Arya.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

It still does'nt matter. the wildlings wanted to march south for Mance, not for Jon or for (f)Arya.

Nor for Stannis

[Nyrhex]

Nor for Stannis

No shit. Are you trolling intentionally, or is there some other way to read "for Mance" that I am not aware of that could give you the impression that I actually think that they wanted to march south for Stannis? At the point that Stannis was contemplating marching on the Dreadfort following Karstark's advice, the Wildlings were prepared to march with him. Now, they were doing it for Mance. As far as they are concerned, Stannis is dead. They were only going to march with him because of the Thenn's more Westerosi-like honour, and the fact that he actually had an army to enforce his will on them.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

It's not trolling just because its not what you want to read.

You said they bent the knee to Stannis like it means something and proves they are Stannis men.

Then now you are changing it to they are back to Mances men

[Sir Tan Lee]

Stannis has none of these things. At this point he has the weakest army out of all the contenders for the throne. Stannis only has about 1500 men from Dragonstone and 2 to 4 thousand Northmen. Not to mention that all his soldiers are starving in the blizard. This puts his military power even lower then The Roose. Stannis isn't some great battle commander like people claim. Hes lost a few battles and Won a few more that puts him just above average.

The Wildlings want political asylum so they are going to follow the person who they think will best provide it. First it was Mance then Stannis (by force) then Jon through Tormund. Jon Isn't a subordinate to Stannis. So Jon can't be counted on to send men.

[Nyrhex]

It's not trolling just because its not what you want to read.

You said they bent the knee to Stannis like it means something and proves they are Stannis men.

Then now you are changing it to they are back to Mances men

The Wildlings bent the knee to Stannis. Stannis then allows Jon to keep them, instead of taking them south where they would serve little porpuse. This is what I said. Nothing more, nothing less.

The Wildlings at the Wall hear that Mance is alive, and that Stannis is dead. They do not follow Jon, they want to rescue Mance.

I changed nothing, I was correctin Mad Monkey about who the wildlings follow.

I could'nt care less if they are Stannis' or not to build him a great host. They are of no use unless in great numbers, which they now lack. They are also not following Jon as thier leader. They take orders from him on the Wall until the letter because they bent to Stannis and were ordered to stay put.

There isn't an "admission" hidden in what I said, "they follow Mance" is pretty clear IMHO. You trying to jab "they don't follow Stannis" seemed a bit like trolling, as if I care about it and you try and make me admit something.

[Light a wight tonight]

All the Dany speculation is shaky, especially if you're counting Dothraki. She has zero ships right now, and it would take a huge number to transport cavalry with remounts and food and water for same over the Narrow Sea, and the Dothraki don't do sea travel. Plus the weather's getting worse, so you'd lose a fair percentage of what you started with. And again, in Winter horses aren't quite au point, as Stannis's forces found out.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

The Wildlings bent the knee to Stannis. Stannis then allows Jon to keep them, instead of taking them south where they would serve little porpuse. This is what I said. Nothing more, nothing less.

The Wildlings at the Wall hear that Mance is alive, and that Stannis is dead. They do not follow Jon, they want to rescue Mance.

I changed nothing, I was correctin Mad Monkey about who the wildlings follow.

I could'nt care less if they are Stannis' or not to build him a great host. They are of no use unless in great numbers, which they now lack. They are also not following Jon as thier leader. They take orders from him on the Wall until the letter because they bent to Stannis and were ordered to stay put.

There isn't an "admission" hidden in what I said, "they follow Mance" is pretty clear IMHO. You trying to jab "they don't follow Stannis" seemed a bit like trolling, as if I care about it and you try and make me admit something.

Then your point isn't really relevant to this

Your just making a point that they aren't Jon's men, I'm not sure if they are Jon's men either.

I'm pretty sure they would be with Jon over Stannis if Mance wasn't in the equation

The thread is about Stannis army, forgive me if I thought you meant they were Stannis men by saying they bent the knee to him